MLP:
I’ve recently been trying to make some builds without the use of the Sorcerer-Prophet to see how it works out. Has anyone written up any lists or even tried out in battle a hero only list of 2000 to 2500 points? (Higher than 2500 you probably should get a Lord as many armies can easily field 2 or more)
I was thinking along the lines of:
Castellan General
Castellan BSB
Demonsmith Level 2
Demonsmith Level 1
1st block Infernal Guard
2nd block Infernal Guard or Ironsworn for taste
Nice lump of bull centaurs/fireborn
Warmachines to suit
Destroyer
Sorcerer-Prophets don’t do a great deal in combat and I often find my magic is not as effective as the enemies. So the main thing you’d miss would be dispelling so I’d have a level 2 with dispel scroll and maybe a level 1 with another cheap scroll.
Without the Lord you have enough points to comfortably get what you want from the rest of the army, you don’t need to scrape points off here and there so you can take nice sized stubborn blocks, bigger monstrous units or an extra war machine or two.
I also think Castellans are one of the best heroes in the game, in combat they should be able to match any other hero and even give a few lords a run for their money.
Ld 9 is as good as most other lords
T 5 is as good as most other lords
WS 6 is pretty decent and as good as the Prophets(or better?)
75 points of magic items is better than any other hero and gives him enough for a good combat build.
Then of course Stubborn(a 35 point magic item normally) makes your core units awesome.
On paper this seems pretty good to me, but I don’t know if it would be in practice. Magic can be a big damage dealer so you’d have to make sure that’s covered.
Marduk:
I think it is a good idea but even if you don’t field any lords you still have 500 points limit. With two castellans and two daemonsmiths you don’t have enough points left to protect them well. I would drop the daemonsmith lvl 1 and give some items to the castellans.
nilbog:
Time of madness did a combat list that relies on the castellans making blocks of IG stubborn, with a few other things thrown in, it is here.
Groznit Goregut:
Wow…going without a Prophet does free up some points! I just might consider that at 2400.
khedyarl:
You know, I never actually considered just NOT having a Prophet before. That does free up a huge amount of points.
Hrm.
Paradigms… shifting…must…write…armylist!
metro_gnome:
well I like this idea… but i’m surprised the Taur’ruk hasn’t come up yet…
This is truly a Hero with Lord stats… for only 50 point more than a Castie…
I figure if you are willing to have a Ld9 general you may as well make it a Smith…
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Demonsmith: Enchanted shield, Dispel scroll (General)
Taur’ruk: Great Weapon, Dragonhelm, Luckstone
Castellan: BSB, Mask of the Furnace, Shield
Demonsmith: Charmed shield, Scroll of Shielding
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adds a Magma Cannon and change to my line up…
Maybe drop the 2nd Smith for a pair of Khans…
What do people think of the Chalice with an all hero setup?
Is the Castellan on Carpet viable? Seems a waste of stubborn…
and that is his only real advantage over the Taur’ruk…
khedyarl:
The thing with a Castellan, though, M_g, is the 75 points in items. That, with the stats of a dwarven hero, really gives him the ability to be an asskicker.
Ta’aruk certainly does have the ability to become a character assassin, though. Stick him in a unit of 3 other Bulls and start running him at heroes, maybe? Direct all the attacks and take out their level fours before they can do too much damage to you?
maded12:
The Ta’aruk is one of the toughest hero’s in the game. 1+save 4wounds toughness 5 and he can still have 50points of magic items.
The problem is not who is the stronger hero the problem is if you are willing to spent those extra points on a hero who won’t go into your anvil blocks.
MLP:
The Taur’uk is pretty awesome the main reason I didn’t mention him is that you only have 25% for heroes and if you don’t take a lord you’ll likely use that with other heroes. Taur’uk can’t be general or BSB and you’ll want both of those which wont leave you a lot of points. maybe in larger battles though.
well remembered nilbog, ToM’s list is looking pretty good. That’s the sort of thing I was thinking of. I wonder if he used that list at all.
metro_gnome:
well what I have above is pretty much points limit for 2500… and looks healthy to me…
a Ld 9 general is not giving you better Ld than you already have with your dwarves… so Y U NO use smith?!
a general that babysits machines seem ok to me… as long as you don’t use hobgoblins with this set up…
might even come in handy if a Hellcannon eats his crew… with a Ld9 general around it may keep firing…
In fact it is the BCs who are operating well outside the generals Ld pip who could really use a Taur’ruk…
Anyway, what is the smallest amount of magic defense that we can get away with? Is the Chalice useful here?
MLP:
Well the castellan doesn’t need to be general for leadership unless you have hobgoblings running around like you said. But I also don’t like having a demonsmith as general as they’re pretty vunerable even with look out sir sometimes.
The maiin reasoning for the second castellan was to give the second block stubborn as well as a combat boost.
The Chalice can be useful, it was discussed a few weeks ago in a thread i can’t remember. I think against your everage enemy level 4 you can get away with a level 2 with the chalice, or even a level 2 with a dispel scroll. If I’m warmachine heavy I’d have two Daemonsmiths with a couple of scrolls. Also you can always get some MR items in your blocks too on standard bearer or heroes.
metro_gnome:
but if you aren’t using your general for anything… then who cares if he gets popped?
I mean anymore than losing a normal daemonsmith… and some extra VP…
In fact he’s a pretty crappy hero that now your opponent has to put effort into popping…
Do you think level 2 is necessary with chalice or scroll caddy?..
I think you end up paying a lot for offensive power you have no hope of using…
If level 1 could fly this might be a good set up for what you are doing… and include a Taur’ruk:
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Castellan: Black Hammer, Shield (General)
Castellan: BSB, Preservation, Enchanted Shield
Taur’ruk: Great Weapon, Dragonhelm
Daemonsmith: Dispel Scroll, Charmed Shield
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I guess it doesn’t make the general much more survivable than the Smith…
I’d be inclined to make the smith the general… get the chalice instead of the scroll…
and swap this Castie for a pair of wolf khans… to help the Taur’ruk hunt down the wizzies…
MLP:
I like the extra power and spells with a level 2, for 35 points it’s worth it I reckon. Not taking a lord doesn’t mean I don’t want any magic at all. But a level 1 with the Chalice could be good enough to knock their magic down on his own, depends who you’re facing really.
Not a bad build you have except I’d rather use something other than the Black Hammer. I just don’t like it I’d rathe just use a great weapon. I think I’d rather keep the two Castellans for the Stubborn rather than Khans, the Taur’uk should be enough with some centaurs. He can always leave the unit and go solo for a bit of flexability too.
But you’re totally right with the General thing, it probably would work out better on the Demonsmith, It just doesn’t seem right to have your general hiding at the back to me!
metro_gnome:
oh i dunno… I think any character from the sorcerer caste would outrank any of the other characters… fluffwise…
and hiding at the back is sort of a thing that Generals do… Captains and Majors are about as high as field rank goes…
I just think that any spells you attempt will just get shouted down by your opponent…
with nothing else to use dispel dice on I’d be surprised if a level 2 gets more spells off than a level 1…
well i tried to figure a way for the GW… but i seem to have nicked all the good armor bits for my favored characters…
at least with shield he has a 3+, 6++ in CC… and the hammer is good value for the points… i’d love it for a Taur’ruk…
I suppose if you go with Blackshard on the Taur’ruk and move the Helm to the general with great weapon… and Opal Amulet?
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Castellan: Great Weapon, Opal Amulet, Dragonhelm (General)
Castellan: BSB, Preservation, Enchanted Shield
Taur’ruk: Great Weapon, Blackshard
Daemonsmith: Dispel Scroll, Charmed Shield
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I guess this is better… but I hate paying so much for Blackshard…
still you’d be hard pressed to get the Chalice in with this set up…
unless you are willing to live with a Castie with GW and just a luckstone or something…
you could even run the Taur’ruk with Shield and Sword of Might (or Battle) to make the Opal Amulet a Dawnstone…
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Castellan: Great Weapon, Dawnstone, Dragonhelm (General)
Castellan: BSB, Preservation, Enchanted Shield
Taur’ruk: Sword of Might, Shield
Daemonsmith: Dispel Scroll, Charmed Shield
-----------------------------------------------------------
sure you lose a pip of strength and a fire ward… but you get to take advantage of the Taur’ruk’s decent Initiative…
Here all you need to do to get the chalice is trade the Dawnstone for a Luckstone and fold the Smith’s gear into the chalice…
MLP:
Yeah I also struggle to take Blackshard for him, unless I’m going all out kitting him up to have a 1+ save and nice magic weapon.
With the level 2 I prefer him for the extra spell over anything, although the extra +1 to cast and dispel is nice too. On average you’ll have 7 power dice(unmodified by chalice) and occasionally higher, so with only one spell the power dice will often be wasted, I’d rather use 3-6 power dice each on two spells on a good magic roll.
metro_gnome:
i dunno… if we say 5 dice with chalice… you can just about cast a top drawer fireball…
the good thing about putting all your dice on one spell is that it makes it difficult to dispel…
I mean against both your spells he’s probably starting with a +4 for level… which is essentially +8 over your phase…
whereas against one spell (and again I think fireball is the best choice here) he has +4 and that’s all…
granted you are also getting +4 for casting against getting only +1 for casting for a single spell phase…
but thats a still a difference of +4 to dispel vs. +3 to dispel in favor of the level 1…
and against the higher the casting value of the single spell the +3 to dispel will make less difference…
I can see your point… but I find the whole business to be pretty unreliable to add points to… for offense…
and would rather just throw all my dice on 1 hot ball of flame… especially if he’s really there for magic defense…
but what is the difference for magic defense? How many spells can we reasonably expect to dispel over an enemy phase?
Lets take an average of 5 PD after chalice (same as before)… and assume an average of what? 3 DD after chalice?
looks like a 2 spell phase with only one real dispel attempt… especially against a level 4 caster…
so your +2 is not as impressive as it might have been with multiple dispels… not +35 points kinda impressive…
but this kind of analysis kinda sells me on the chalice… for this purpose at least…
I was wondering why the Chalice was getting hammered in the ETC comp thread…
I think see the reason now… It potentially castrates expensive wizards… paints a “kick me” sign on your smith tho…
khedyarl:
The thing with playing the odds on something like the chalice, though, is that probability doesn’t really average out when you’re tossing a single dice like that. You’ll see incredible turns, and turns that you wish you’d never used it as often as you will the combinatoric mean of 5 Cast, 3 dispel.
Not to say it isn’t worth it, but just that it is very random. Personally, I think it’s one of the thematically coolest items in the game, and try to stuff it in whenever points allow.
metro_gnome:
well probability is all we have in theroyhammer… :hat off
you still have the ability to use or not use it… which you opponent does not share…
and it will be a challenge to decide when is the right time… or more precisely when it is not…
but the point is at mean average a level 1 (with fireball) makes it count more…
i mean 5d6 +1 is still kinda chancy for the highest fireball… an extra dice or 2 will seal the deal…
likewise… if you have less dice you cast the middle version… a very versatile synergy here…
but yeah its a weird bit of business with defense… anything can happen there…
but I can guarantee it will mess with your opponents game plan… and where he spent his points…
but personally I wonder about broader applications…
like say Chalice + Channeling staff + Spell-Wrought…
if you deliberately make dice scarce… ways of getting them are pretty valuable…
unfortunately this topic would be outside the subject of the thread… 
Edit:
<------------------- Post 700… w00t!
Discoking:
Just a proto type list.
I’d prob like more Renders & Fireborn.
And also a more defensive general! Lol.
+ Heroes + (597pts)
* Bull Centaur Taur’ruk (235pts)
Blackshard Armour, Dawnstone, Dragonshelm, Great Weapon, The Other Trickster’s Shard
* Daemonsmith Sorcerer (160pts)
Charmed Shield, Dispel Scroll, Lore of Fire, Wizard Level 2
* Dark Castellan (202pts)
Battle Standard Bearer, Ironcurse Icon, Shield, The Mask of the Furnace
+ Core + (622pts)
* 28 x Chaos Dwarf Infernal Guard (378pts)
Musician, Standard Bearer, Banner of Eternal Flame
* 20 x Hobgoblin Cutthroats (122pts)
Musician, Standard Bearer, Bows, Shields
* 20 x Hobgoblin Cutthroats (122pts)
Musician, Standard Bearer, Bows, Shields
+ Special + (845pts)
* 5 x Bull Centaur Renders (270pts)
Musician, Standard Bearer, Gleaming Pennant
* Deathshrieker Rocket Launcher (100pts)
* 6x K’daai Fireborn (330pts)
* Magma Cannon (145pts)
+ Rare + (335pts)
* Hellcannon (205pts)
* 5 x Hobgoblin Wolf Raiders (65pts) Musician
* 5 x Hobgoblin Wolf Raiders (65pts)
Musician
metro_gnome:
hmmm… well if your general is on the march I worry about your machines…
and if your general is Infernal Engineering I worry about your hobgoblins…
You also seem to be short core… unless this a 2.4K… in which case carry on…
I would change this unit of Fireborn for a second unit of Renderers with shields 4 wide as a 2+ screen to your GW block…
Your unit of 5 should have GWs btw… I dunno a 4th character (or 5th with Khans) would be preferable to this setup…
even if it’s just another smith to make sure that Hellcannon behaves itself…
