[Archive] My changes to LoA

Grimstonefire:

Not a complete list, just some early thoughts.  Feel free to post your own ideas here.

Great Host rules:

  • Add the Legion of Azgorh to the army lists that can be taken in a Great Host.



Sorcerer Prophet:

  • #1  Clarify whether the Darkforged Weapon is a Magic Weapon and/ or just confers Magic Attacks (saying it�?Ts a �?~magical weapon�?T has caused some confusion).  



Daemonsmith Sorcerer:



    Chaos Dwarf Warriors:

    • Copy Dwarf warriors over and add Contempt.  This opens up a great deal more tactical options for players even if there is no intention of making models for them.



    Infernal Guard:

    • Change Overseer typo to Deathmask.

    • Reduce Great Weapons to +2pts/model

    • Reduce Fireglaives to +4pts/model

    • Reduce Hailshot Blunderbusses to +5pts/model

    • Move Shields to an option (+1pt/model)



    Hobgoblins:

    • Move Light Armour to an option (1pt/model)



    Iron Sworn:

    • Move Shields to an option (+1pt/model)

    • Move Ensorcelled Hand Weapons to an option (+2pts/ model).  

    • Give them the option for Great Weapons (+2pts/model).



    Bull Centaur Renders:



      Hobgoblin Wolf Riders



        Dreadquake Mortar:

        • Change Slow Reload so it fires every other turn.

        • Take out the misfire alteration.



        Iron Daemon:

        • Change Thunderstomp to D6 Impact Hits in each round of on-going combat after the first.

        Baggronor:

        Sorcerer Prophet: Remove Darkforged Weapon and reduce points cost.

        Castellan: Remove Stubborn, reduce to 70pts.

        Daemonsmith: Remove Darkforged Weapon and reduce points cost.

        Hobgoblin Khan: Increase to WS5.

        Infernal Guard: Change shields to optional. Reduce to 10pts per model. Reduce great weapons to +2pts per model. Reduce BBs to +2pts per model. Reduce Fireglaives to +2pts per model.

        Hobgoblins: Change throwing knives and light armour to options and reduce to 3pts per model.

        Ironsworn: Reduce to 15pts each. Add Stubborn.

        Bull Centaurs: Increase to WS5, increase to 3 Attacks each, increase to Str 5 and reduce to T4. Add Blackshard Armour. Increase to 65pts each.

        Iron Daemon: 2D6 impact hits at the start of every close combat phase instead of Thunderstomp. Skullcracker adds a further D6. Cannonades fire like regular cannons, Str 6 D3 wounds per hit.

        K’Daai: Reduce ward save to 5+. Allow ward vs Toughness test wounds.

        Magma Cannon: Reduce range to 18".

        Hobgoblin Wolf Riders: Move to Special.

        Dreadquake Mortar: Pieplate. Remove Slow to Fire, add Ogre Loader as standard for bonus wounds and combat ability. Remove -1 penalty to Misfire result.

        Siege Giant: Reduce to 200pts. Or just remove. Giants in general are just rubbish for the current stats.

        K’Daai Destroyer: Reduce ward save to 5+. Allow ward vs Toughness test wounds. Reduce to 305pts.

        Caine:

        I must ask you gents (asuming u are guys) if u would realy like a list that is soooo good that it can compete with the deamons and dark elfs? Or do u whant a new army that fitts in with the 8’th ed books. (beastmen/orcs&gobs/TK/OK).
        I myself havent seen the book up close so i cant judge the bull centaurs but im going with the experimental rules on FW site and the stuff ppl have writen on this forum.
        Will u lost all your games with this army? I think not. Will u lose against top tier armys? Maby u will.
        But with all the new army books comming out that are equal of power wouldent u say this is a medium army? Yea sure having the IG cost less points would be super but would u be happy with ppl saying your army is cheese?

        I for one love to be the underdog and win. And even if i lose, w/e its a fun game and we all (not all) play it for fun. To enjoy others company and to try to think tacticaly. (balls i hate dice)
        And if u say, i whant to score hard at tornaments? Well do u think a 40k torny would allow a Death korps army? No, its a forge world list as this is a WF list its about the same.

        I get so mad about ppl flaming the ONE thing we have got since… well forever :smiley:

        ps. New gigant rocks!! the one thing the old gigant needed was a armour save, and gues what? he got a 3+ from shooting! No more 10man skink unit blowdarting it to hell :smiley:

        Thommy H:

        Please don’t use text speak - it’s in the forum rules. There’s no character limit on your posts, it makes you sound 12 and it’s annoying to read.

        And it’s not about making the army more powerful, it’s about making it make sense. The current list is in no way in line with the philosophies of 8th Edition (actually, there are quite a few things that smack of the authors still being fixated on 7th) and there are some points costs and options that don’t work at all. Why is the Destroyer so good and Infernal Guard so bad? Why do the cheap troops that are only useful as a Steadfast tarpit come with light armour? How can the Dreadquake cost almost the same as the Hellcannon while being demonstrably inferior? The problem is really internal balance.

        Parish:

        Did the book not already writte ? , and these are just nice thoughts that we will never be able to use .^^"

        Grimstonefire:

        A couple of years from now, if we produce a sensible and thoroughly playtested list of changes we feel are appropriate I’m sure they would consider publishing an updated list in pdf form.

        They did that recently with one of the IA lists (forget which).

        @Caine

        Changing the list so you don’t have redundant options (like having to take a shield when you only want a great weapon) is not making the list top tier. :wink:

        The Besieger:

        I will use the  LOA list.

        And after many years i’m happy to see a new CD army list.

        The LOA list is a good one and it dont need change.

        When the accept a CD army on a tournament it will be

        the official LOA list and not a selfmade LOA list.

        I will be ashamed when i use a selfmade LOA list in friendly battles.

        We are a group of 6 friends that playing warhammer for more then

        15 years.And i’m happy that the will accept the Tamurkhan LOA list.

        For many years i used only this list WEBRING and still won some battles.

        Baggronor:

        if u would realy like a list that is soooo good that it can compete with the deamons and dark elfs? Or do u whant a new army that fitts in with the 8'th ed books. (beastmen/orcs&gobs/TK/OK).
        Well, despite what the internet says, in my experience the 8th ed books are much better written than the last edition and they are more than capable of wiping the floor with DoC, DEs etc. The new books have so many more options, can partake in every phase and they are fun to use. The 'power armies' are basically all one trick ponies - I kick their asses with my (6th ed!) Dwarfs regularly (also a one trick pony, its just that my one trick is better than theirs ;P).

        What I want is a CD army list that is well written and keeps me tinkering with it, not a list where I know what works and what doesn't after 1 game.
        The big achievement of the 8th ed books is that they do that - there are no auto-pick choices in OnGs, TKs or OKs, everything in the list is viable. Thats' what I want. The LoA units basically fall into 3 categories: Amazing, Rubbish and Compulsory, and there is virtually no debate about which ones are in which category (though there is some overlap).
        New gigant rocks!! the one thing the old gigant needed was a armour save, and gues what? he got a 3+ from shooting! No more 10man skink unit blowdarting it to hell
        And that's fine. The problem is that for a few points more you get a Destroyer who is so much better its absurd. My argument is not with the unit choices or the coolness, its the internal balance and lack of playtesting. LoA isn't a better book than the 7th ed ones, it has exactly the same problems - some units are obviously better than others. This doesn't mean I'm not going to spend days poring over the Tamurkhan book though, because I will - the fluff and epicness of it is wonderful :)
        Will u lose against top tier armys? Maby u will.
        I actually doubt it. There are some pretty ridiculous things you could do with this army list. A list with 3 lv1s on Death/Fire, BSB, 600pts of IG, 2 Magma Cannons, 2 Deathshriekers, Hellcannon, 6 Fireborn and a Destroyer will deal with most VCs and DoCs builds, and DEs too; if you play RAW, Repeater Crossbowmen, DE Spearmen, Corsairs and Black Guard can't even harm the Destroyer without Withering or Mindrazor going off successfully (and even then its still 3s to wound at best and it has a 4+ ward), and its powerful enough to take on both Hydras at once - now that's broken :o. Its not a weak army at all, its just badly written.
        A couple of years from now, if we produce a sensible and thoroughly playtested list of changes we feel are appropriate I'm sure they would consider publishing an updated list in pdf form.
        I really hope so. I wish they had come to us for playtesting, we would have happily done it for free. :(

        Bassman:

        I think is a real good idea to provide FW with some suggestion in order to let them release a pdf with small corrections. Like GW did once with 6th edition Dark Elves (that turned from utterly c#@p into plain c#@p :wink: ). I do not think they will accpet EVERY correction but I think they are flexible enough to add SOME corrections. :slight_smile:

        Not having the book yet (come on FW!!!) I could say nothing but second previous suggestions.

        My biggest complain is that any dwarf shooting troop is unplayable! They are too expensive to be viable. It’s impossible dwarfs (of any kind) do not develop reliable and playable guns and pistols for their troopers!!!

        The only option so far is hobgoblin archers (and that is really lame :frowning: ).

        And please, please the Dreadquake shall have the big (pie) template!

        Grimstonefire:

        The important thing is that whatever rules changes we suggest don’t mess around with the models they’ve released.

        Things like moving light armour and shields to options are not broken at all and really should have been done.

        The 5" template I’m not so sure about.  Imo this is ok, it’s the Quake effects that need boosting (perhaps to 2D6" from point of impact).

        Norngahl:

        Interesting point of view you got, but I only have a few issues with the list…

        1. If GW doesn´t bring out an CD armybook anymore, and therefore the LoA isn´t just a special but THE ONLY armylist CDs have, than copy the CD Warriors back into the list. Just to have some differences in the armylists and the possibility to go for cheap CDs with GW rather than beeing forced to take Infernal Guards. It´s not that I don´t like Infernal Guard, but I love Big Hats as well.

        2. The Sorcerer Prophet is way to expensive… Make the Darkforged Weapon to an option just like Blood of Hashut. Fix the rule that Darkforged Weapons don´t loose their effect while he sits on a Lammasu :wink:

        3. The Daemonsmiths are totally fine points and equippment wise, just offer them to take the Lore of Hashut. With the Basic Hatred spell, the magic phase in a Daemonsmith-Only army wouldn´t be so boring as with Metal/Fire/Death. Really. Lore of Hashut Upgrade FTW.

        4. Oh please, a Lord Level combat character! Just because if I once might want to!

        5. Reduce point costs for Fireglaives to 4 points and let the IG keep their shields and they are totally fine. Same with Blunderbusses, just for 5 points. With only 1 shot per Model most times hitting on 5s, a common unit of ca. 20-25 IG with fireglaives only kills 4-6 regular models per turn for a point cost that is beyond good and bad… So just give them shields and reduce ranged weapon options by 1 points, so I´d be even considerable to take blunderbusses on IG, which then would still have 3+/6++ in CC…

        6. Magma Cannon, either ged rid of the D3 wounds or of St 5 and reduce it to S4… Really, that thing is way to hard for what it costs Oo

        7. Reduce the Iron Daemon back to 265 points… Seriously… Or make the Thunderstomp become Impact hits. Otherwise in CC it´s totally helpless against monsters as he got only 3 CD attacks. And please make clear if the Daemon ALWAYS hits on 4+ while shooting or if just the moving penality is ignored, but long range still counts. :wink:

        8. Add unbreakable/stubborn to the Ironsworn for free and they might become an option.

        9. Kdaais, please make sure if models that touch the regiment suffer 1 S4 hit, or every model touching a kdaii… If 5 wide Kdaiis charge a 10-wide horde this might either be 10 S4 hits, or 5x4 S4 hits, which is a huge difference…

        10. Massivly reduce the giants point cost… Really… As all the giants he does little for many points. I´d even be so free to say drop it down to 175 points and it could see the battlefield rather than the shelf. Between an Iron Dameon, Kdaii Destroyer, Kdaii Fireborn, Bull Centaures and all the warmachine he´d definately be the LAST option (just because of T5, W6 and effectivly no armour…) I´d take out of the whole armylist. I´d even rather take wolfriders than him…

        11. Wolf Riders, make them a bit more stable ruleswise (just drop some rules) so they can become a unit which operates behind enemies lines and to get warmachines… Really, they jsut aren´t usuable as they are now.

        12. Magic Items

        All of our magic items are total crap… Either there are items in the BRB that come too close to it (orgre blade vs. hammer of hashut ; Dragonhelm/Talisman of Preservation vs. Mask of the Furnance) or they have rules nobody and his mother needs (Armour of Bazberak the Cruel, I get MR2 and a 2+ AS for THIS points?! Heck, the 2+ AS can come from an Enchanted Shield for 5 points and MR is one of the worst special rules in the game I´d even not buy for 10 points Oo). I´d have whished a

        - 1+ AS

        - a GW with ASF

        - Chalice for 25 points as it is or for 35 when you can choose how many dices (equal) to drop (1-3 from your enemy AND your pool)

        - a 3+ ward for the char and his mount vs shoozing OR immunity for the char and his mount against the multiple wounds special rule

        - a banner that gives +1 AS

        - a banner that gives you +1 WS/BS

        - an item that grants you +1 spell

        Personally I think Kdaais are priced fine (especially because the unit slowly kills itself, that´s 55 points each time and of course you have to take 4+ kdaais per unit to compensate for that and the unstable rule, which leaves you without the truly reliable possibility to spam these in 3-strong units…) as rare the BC (now that they have 3 wounds each, combined with T5 and 3+ AS they are a tough nut to crack and even pretty good with 2A and GW).

        All in all I think there are just few and small changes in the armylist + a new magic item chamber to make this list great. So far, I thing WF/FW has done a good job!

        Grimstonefire:

        Fix the rule that Darkforged Weapons don´t loose their effect while he sits on a Lammasu ;)

        Norngahl
        Wait..? It's only models in base contact isn't it? Not an issue here.

        Baggronor:

        Fix the rule that Darkforged Weapons don´t loose their effect while he sits on a Lammasu
        Models aren't in base contact with themselves, so its fine.

        Bassman:

        The 5" template I'm not so sure about.

        Grimstonefire
        Because it's cool, an enormous gun needs an ENORMOUS template! :D
        It's just the coolness effect ;)

        Grimstonefire:

        With a D6 multiplier you could potentially take out 2 units in one shot if they were close together with a 5" template… Which imo is a bit cheesy.

        I’d prefer to keep the 3" but boost the quake.

        9. Kdaais, please make sure if models that touch the regiment suffer 1 S4 hit, or every model touching a kdaii… If 5 wide Kdaiis charge a 10-wide horde this might either be 10 S4 hits, or 5x4 S4 hits, which is a huge difference…

        Norngahl
        The rule says ‘any model in base contact…’ etc.  Which I presume must mean it would be 10 in your example.

        Thommy H:

        What I want is a CD army list that is well written and keeps me tinkering with it, not a list where I know what works and what doesn't after 1 game.
        The big achievement of the 8th ed books is that they do that - there are no auto-pick choices in OnGs, TKs or OKs, everything in the list is viable. Thats' what I want. The LoA units basically fall into 3 categories: Amazing, Rubbish and Compulsory, and there is virtually no debate about which ones are in which category (though there is some overlap).

        Baggronor
        Yeah, this is my major issue with it. Just take a look at all the lists in the Army List forum - they're pretty much all just a Sorcerer Prophet, a Castellan BSB (since it's a no-brainer with Stubborn), sometimes some Daemonsmiths, then a couple of blocks of IG (generally with no options because they're so expensive), maybe a Hobgoblin horde, Magma Cannon and the Destroyer. People who don't have a Destroyer converted and don't like to proxy substitute a Hellcannon. Why would anyone take any other combination of units, unless they're going solely on what models they have, in which case the question of army lists is kind of irrelevant anyway.

        Time of Madness:

        I agree with Thommy.

        So many choices that just won’t see the field for me in a competitive game. Centaurs, dreadquakes, ironsword, iron daemons, fireglaives, blunderbusses, giant and even hobgoblins (although I realize some people like the hobgoblins).

        Units I’ve been using include Prophet, castellans, daemonsmiths, infernal guard with hand weapons, fireborn, deathshriekers, magma cannons, destroyer and I’ll eventually bust out the hellcannon. Those are the best units in the book in my opinion.

        However, I’m just happy we have a book. A topic like this might be good in a couple of months when the masses have books and the majority of people have got games in.

        Time of Madness

        Thommy H:

        I should point out that I’m the least competitive gamer in history - but I do enjoy and have some experience in the field of game design, and I expect army lists to be balanced because otherwise the whole edifice falls apart. A perfectly balanced army will have a 50% chance of beating another perfectly balanced army, assuming equal player skill: therefore, the result of the game should be determined by whoever is better at Warhammer. This is what makes it a game rather than just moving toys around a table and rolling dice. It’s the difference between football and a kick around in the park. It’s the difference between playing make-believe with plastic army men and…well…Warhammer.

        3 point great weapons on S4 Core troops is insane, for example. It makes IG with great weapons at least a point overpriced (and more like 2 points overpriced). And it’s not that they’ll lose every time - you could roll nothing but 6s, after all - it’s that it defeats the purpose of playing a game with them at all. If you can’t say, “this unit makes sense in the context of a Warhammer game”, you may as well leave it at home.

        Would you play with a Hydra that cost 10 points? Would you play with a Goblin that cost 1000 points? No, because they’re just numbers plucked out of the air. You may as well not bother with points at all.

        The Besieger:

        Thommy…

        How many % (to win) you give a LOA army  vs a perfectly balanced army?

        Thommy H:

        It depends hugely on the mix of units, as Baggronor said. With Infernal Guard armed with anything except hand weapons, Hobgoblins, backed up by a Dreadquake and an Iron Daemon, they’re at a disadvantage. If you take IG with nothing extra or a naked Hobgoblin horde, Magma Cannon, Fireborn and a Destroyer, you have a huge advantage. The issue is balance within the list - it’s way too obvious what’s good and what’s not, so why include the crap options at all? No one’s going to take them unless they have the models already, in which case it becomes a moot point.

        Optimised, it’ll take on anything and have a better than average chance of winning. I can’t give it a number because it would be meaningless, but by definition it’s higher than 50%. The Destroyer alone is spectacular for its points.