That is good news for me. I was hoping infernal guard would stay as core. That way a good force can be built with figures already released / seen in WIP. Other wise for a new chaos dwarf player, the only other option would be to wait on the hobgoblins / cd warriors or get from another range.
For sure! I was actually thinking that as well which was probably a key deciding factor in them being a core unit, so they could actually have core available for the army when the book is released.
I like that the Infernal Guard are staying as core. This means that I will be able to get a complete and coherent looking army straight away.
From FW’s point of view it also makes sense as they will be able to sell their stuff and and people will not be waiting for ages to be able to field it.
Thanks for the update. This makes my pre-order for the day much easier.
ugh, so the dreadquake stayed the same… I guess If the tamurkhan becomes the new rules for warhammer tournaments Im gonna have to retire my cd’s from the tournament scene.
yup, that was a missed opportunity… and im also looking forward to the flamewars concerning our “OP” magma cannon.
anyways, ig as core is nice (even though im pretty sure this will be another reason for whining), as it leaves more room for specials (and bumps my core up to 2500pts - i have to do some calculations but i think i can now field 10k of cds! :cheers )
What’s so bad about the Dreadquake Cannon? Is it that it doesn’t slow down enemy movement?
I think it looks fantastic, to me. I’m coming at it fresh and looking at it as a completely new weapon. S5 and AP? Multi-wound? Force units to take Dangerous Terrain tests when they move?
A huge unit of cheap Core units are hurt by this (Skaven Slaves). Not only do they lose almost 20 guys from the hit, they all have to take a DT test if they want to move and lose more! 100 Night Goblins? You will see those suckers dying in droves…
Elite units are also hurt. The S5 and AP will be able to destroy Chaos Warriors. Did I read a rumor that if you make something “demonic” that it goes up one S? Even better! Man, it would destroy dwarfs and chaos warriors. Only high ward saves would save a unit.
Monsters? Strength 5 (or maybe 6) will hurt monsters. Multi wound? Great! Long range. Good. Even force a DT test on the monster the next round. I’m fine with that.
What is the cannon bad against? Other war machines?
What's so bad about the Dreadquake Cannon? Is it that it doesn't slow down enemy movement?
It uses the small blast. For its points, it's completely useless. Plus even the little Empire Mortar gets to use the big blast, so it's a bit daft that this amazing, allegedly so-powerful-it-needs-an-Ogre-to-load-it cannon can't even manage to be as dangerous as that.
I would MUCH prefer things in the list be UNDERPOWERED rather than overpowered. People would no doubt complain of a S5 D6 wounds armor piercing 5" pie plate.
We are trying to have a list that is acceptable in the warhammer tournament and metagame. The magma cannon and the fact that we are dwarves with magic, flying monsters, cheap infantry, and fast cavalry is already pushing that.
I would prefer they keep things toned down. I am almost saddened that the magma cannon stayed the same as I am fairly certain that a lot of people really aren’t going to like facing it. When it’s things like a War Hydra people can only cry cheese in a tournament environment, but when it’s part of a book that isn’t really “GW official” it will make it so I can’t use the $1500 forgeworld army that I am working on.
Basically I would MUCH rather it be a soft list than top tier.
Also, I would rather have a small template S5 weapon than a large template S3 weapon. You can still hit 20 guys in a big unit or still smash an elite unit with it. Also, the larger the unit the more dangerous terrain tests it will take.
Let’s say a 10x10 unit of Night Goblins gets hit. Why that unit? I see it on numerous occasions and by numerous players. It hits 20 of them with a direct hit and kills 16 of them with the template S5 hit. Next, when they move, they take dangerous terrain tests and 14 more of them die! That’s a total of 30 dead due to one hit. That’s almost 1/3 of the unit in one round!
Find that unit improbable? Let’s take 50 Skaven Slaves. Direct hit. 16 more dead. After DT test, there are 5-6 more dead. So, with 21-22 dead, that’s almost half the unit. Throw some hobgoblins that are steadfast and watch them break.
What about Chaos Warriors? Let’s say a block of 20 are hit. At T4, it will probably kill 8-9 of them. Add in another 2 or so from difficult terrain. That’s half the unit. Half a unit of Chaos Warriors. That’s awesome!
Because this is apparently capable of packing a bigger wallop than this, even though the Dreadquake is allegedly some kind of super weapon designed by the most feared arcane engineers in the Warhammer world. It’s fine if the Dreadquake’s whole deal is it’s a basic artillery piece that shakes people up a bit, like the old Earthshaker, but we’re supposed to buy that this is a weapon large enough that you need an Ogre to pick up its ammo.
And, honestly, it’s not good enough for its points. It’s priced like something terrifying, and doesn’t back it up with killing power. It’s like they didn’t realise how boring its rules are, and haven’t read any recent Armies books with all their cool new stuff.
Someone mentioned the Trebuchet earlier - which is also a S 5(10) Stone Thrower, has slightly shorter range (irrelevant on most tables), can’t move but has an extra Wound and doesn’t need to roll 3+ to fire - costs over 100 points less. Is the quake effect and Armour Piercing really worth that much? I don’t think so.
Thommy is right though. An ogre is required to lift the ammo reliably. The damn thing looks like it should be shooting 5" templates. Especially considering the empire mortar doing as such. But then again, the hellcannon doesn’t look like it should be using a 3" template either and it does.
But to be honest I much prefer the small template at S5 and armor piercing, than large at S3. I don’t have a problem dealing with hordes of T3 and T4 as much as I have a problem with dealing with large hordes of high priced, high armored elites, and I think the DQM will do a great job of dealing with those.
Quick correction: it’s actually the Helstrom Rocket Battery that uses the 5" template, not the Mortar. Even so, it’s still woefully overpriced for what it does.
I just had to check the empire book to make sure, but the Mortar, and the Helstrom Rocket both use the 5" template.
But yeah. The points you pay for the DQM are a bit much, but I can see myself using it fairly often. It’s a great way of breaking up a gunlines castle, and it works GREAT against war machines, monsters, and large elite units. Especially the “Quake!” effect which virtually nullifies a war machine should you even partially hit one due to the D6 wounds that the warmachine will take should it try to shoot.
I am perfectly fine with the three war machines we are going to have in the list as they all fit their roles perfectly IMO.
The thing is that the empire book is older and has not been updated for 8th edition. I fully expect that when it does it will be made into the small template.
S5 AP on a warmachine is awesome! The multiple wounds is also great!
Add in the dangerous terrain test (which is currently a 25pt on the charge only ability) and the cannon is awesome.
Those comparing miniatures the hellcannon is huge and only does the small template.
Yeah, I don’t have The Empire book - everything I said was based on discussions here. Nonetheless, the point still stands that the thing costs more than double what a Bretonnian Trebuchet does and there’s no way it’s twice as good. It’s effect might be ‘good’, but is it worth 200-odd points? Bear in mind it has a 50% chance of exploding on a Misfire and it won’t even work 1/3 of the time unless you fork out the points for an Ogre. I just don’t think the rules make any sense. They read like they were written by someone who doesn’t really know that much about Warhammer.
The Empire Mortar is only S3, even if it uses the 5" template. That’s pathetic. Just consider that the shells for the DQM make an explosion more powerful, not bigger. Consider that it’s S5 and AP! That is considerably better than S3 at a big template. We have the Deathshriek Rocket for S3 attacks.
The Hellstrom Rocket is 5" template with S5, but twice as inaccurate. It also doesn’t have Multi-Wound, Armor Piercing, or Quake. I’d happily pay the extra 100 pts for those abilities. Imagine this thing hitting a unit of Ogres. That’s a lot of dead Ogres…
Not fair to compare it with the Trebuchet as that is an older book that is about to get redone. That weapon is crazily under priced. It’s based off catapults being S4. I’d argue that it’s one of the most broken things in the game…except the rest of the Brett list isn’t all that great.
The weapon is 215 pts with the Ogre. Just consider the Ogre a “must have” and include him in the cost of the item. I don’t know why they didn’t.
It just seems that you guys are knocking it for having a small template when you see such a big gun when you aren’t looking at the rule mechanics and understanding the level of damage it can do. The best part is that it’s a multi-target weapon. Mortars are only good against low T troops that are unarmored. This thing works against every type of target and does massive death. Maybe only regenerating critters will be safe.
I'd argue that it's one of the most broken things in the game
Then you'd be the only person in the history of the internet I've ever seen to make that argument. The Trebuchet is slightly cheaper than it should be because of its place in the Bretonnian list (the only artillery piece, of limited use in a army that is otherwise 90% heavy cav), but there's just no denying that 200-odd points for a S5 Stone Thrower that will blow up half the time it misfires is pretty crazy. The way I reckon it, you really are paying about 100 points for its quake ability and Armour Piercing. That can't be right, can it?
Again I go back to the comparison with the Magma cannon, 60 points gets you extra range and the quake ability? I’m not sure on accuracy (with or without the daemonsith) but I’d reckon any downside for the cannon is offset somewhat by the bigger flame template.
Thats the main reason I initially won’t take it, I think I’ll try the magma first although I fully intend to use everything in the book at some stage in the few months after I get the book
