[Archive] Of Chaos, Of Hashut, and Of Daemons

Archive [Archive] Stories and Background
41

Lord Zarkov:

The Old Ones were originally exra-dimensional aliens before they arived on the warhammer world and with the sudering of the Chaos Gate they fled from whence they came. Now however there would have been formed true deitis in the ‘forms’ of the Old Ones from the Lizardmen’s feverent belief. Sotek is a god formed from the Lizardmen’s anger at the intrusions into their realm and theft of their property (a type of emotion, hence he is a . The physical manifestation is, I would assume, some sort of daemon-equivalent brought into existance by a focal point of both worship and the exact emotion he was formed from, together with many sacrifices. Sotek is really however more of a warp god than any other ‘Old One’ as he is not based upon memories of an existing being.

Unfortuanly I do not own the OK army book, so cannot comment fully on the Great Maw. The effects of it’s arrival however I’m fairly sure are warp related due to the fact that the meteor was (like most in WH) made of Warpstone. Warpstone meteors generally lead to very bad magic related things and have previously led to high level daemonic manifestations (i.e. Be’lakor in Mordheim).

42

cornixt:

Zarkov is pretty much correct even if he uses a lot of 40K terms. When an actual being is worshipped then the soul of the being doesn’t necessarily get the power from that worship but it causes disturbances in the chaos realm that correspond to that being.

43

Sobek:

You wouldn’t consider the original Old One’s Gods? They certainly can effect the physical realm as much as any of the Chaos Gods, if not more.

Your probably right about the Great Maw; seems to conveniant a deity, one that embodies everything Ogres stand for. Seems likely its a Chaos deity.

Anyone know anything about the original gods of Khemri?

44

Lord Zarkov:

You wouldn't consider the original Old One's Gods? They certainly can effect the physical realm as much as any of the Chaos Gods, if not more.

Sobek
I wouldn't consider the Old Ones (the actual beings) to be gods, they were merely aliens with very high level technology and magical power (despiet the absence of the 8 winds at this point). It was these two factors that allowed them to accomplish all that they did before their departure.

However after their departure (and prehaps before as well), due to the ferverent belief in them from the Lizardmen and the men of Albion (many of whome saw them as gods), and to a lesser degree the other peoples of the Old World (& Ulthuan) as well, warp presences would have developed in thier name and upon reaching the threshold power level would have become the 'true' gods that carry out miracules in their names.
45

metro_gnome:

thats interesting…
could it be that this very belief system was the thing that caused the warp gate to collapse?

46

Lord Zarkov:

hmm, that’s something I’d never considered before

Certainly concentrated levels of belief in something has ben known to ‘split the veil’, to use an old phrase; and from 40K we can see the effects of birthing gods (ref Slaanesh & the Eldar)

And with the warhammer world already having a weak point (i.e. the gate) this could facilitate the splitting. Maybe like a new volcano, the pressure could build up until a weak point in the crust is found, and then the crust is split and the pressure released as an eruption; I could certainly see this as being possible with in the context.

So yes I would think it is a very possible idea, and certainly, if not the cause, I could see it as well have being a factor.

47

cornixt:

That’s a very interesting point, I agree that it could be a possible cause.

48

Xander:

All the gods in the Warhammer world are warp deities, formed from a 'condensation' of emotions in the aether into a coherant mass in the form of a warpstorm which eventually gains it's own sentience and become a god. The Big Four are simply the largest of these warpstorms as they cover the largest and basest emotions, and are therefore the most powerful as they have the largest region from which to draw their power. The range of these storms (or pools) is so vast that many minor deities often overlap with one or more of them (as well as each other) when the draw upon simmiler emmotions and concepts, as well as having their own region of warpspace. A good example is warpstorm Khaine that would overlap with both warpstorm Khorne and warpstorm Slaanesh as well as having a bit of his own region.

Sigmar is an oddity as before his 'ascencion' there would have been a minor pool of the emotions and concepts he stood for which had not yet grown strong enough to gain true sentience. Upon his death and when his soul entered the warp it would have been drawn towards this region as it shared the same characteristics as him. We are then led to believe that due to his unique willpower and 'spiritual/psychic' (for want of a better term) might he was not only able to hold his soul together upon entry to the warp, but also to then merge with this region that stood for the same as him and bring it to sentience with his beliefs. Although he wan't originally, Sigmar is now a god in the same way as any other; and having been empowered by his worship from the Empire, and the reverence of what he stood for by others, he is now a fairly powerful one (although nothing on the Gods of Chaos).

The impoirtant thing to remember though is that while all gods come from chaos (i.e. the aether), not all gods are Chaos (tm) and associate with the Big Four, even if their region of warpspace overlaps.

Lord Zarkov
Cool stuff. I am learning. :hat off
49

Hashut’s Blessing:

Basically, Zarkov, you can be my mouth on this subject because everything ypu have said is what I have thought, just said better. And I think it is wholely realistic that more belief puts more strain on the Chaos Gate. Also, as to The Great Maw, it didn’t exist until after that meteor hit. There are a lot of ogres and they have to believe something because they have no reason not to and aren’t (generally) intelligent enough to think for themselves, not to mention it was convenient for their habits (their god representing a big mouth and they already liked to eat), then their is the issue of it being made of warpstone, probably making the emotions change into a chaos-god-form-thing much more easily.

50

dedwrekka:

Basically, Zarkov, you can be my mouth on this subject because everything ypu have said is what I have thought, just said better. And I think it is wholely realistic that more belief puts more strain on the Chaos Gate. Also, as to The Great Maw, it didn't exist until after that meteor hit. There are a lot of ogres and they have to believe something because they have no reason not to and aren't (generally) intelligent enough to think for themselves, not to mention it was convenient for their habits (their god representing a big mouth and they already liked to eat), then their is the issue of it being made of warpstone, probably making the emotions change into a chaos-god-form-thing much more easily.

Hashut's Blessing
Of course, the fact that they can actually go and visit it is another thing entirely.
51

Lord Zarkov:

@ Xander and HB, Thanks!

@ dedwrekka

They can visit the crater, yes, but from what I’ve read they won’t see much, just a hole with some warpstone. Although there’s likely to be some pretty funky stuff going on in the surrounding environment due to the high levels of warpstone. Most lilkey though (unless there is some daemon that’s manifested there) the crater is merely a symbol to focus the faith and it would be the reflection in the warp that would hold the power.

52

dedwrekka:

Except that any Ogres that visit it will return with parts of them bitten off, eaten, missing, or may not return at all. Those who do return from seeing it say it is a vast and toothy maw with rippling muscles that stretch down into nothingness. Those that have sailed across the oceans say there is another maw on the opposite side of the world that is in the form of a gaping and tooth filled whirlpool.

There also seems to be little to suggest that it was formed of warpstone other than the sickly green glow that emanated from it before it hit the ground, which could be nearly anything. The fact that it had a gaping mouth before making contact, and that when it did make contact it continued to burrow into the ground, suggest that it was an actual being instead of just an inert comet as it was coming down.

53

Hashut’s Blessing:

Even if it WAS another being, their belief that it is a god is what FORMED a god in the chaos realm. If it IS made of warpstone, the sharp rocks around the crater may act as teeth. Or there are many mutant things that bit the ogres and they know if they start saying the Great Maw isn’t real, they’ll get killed etc… I’m not saying the Great Maw isn’t physically manifested, I’m saying that the ACTUAL god of it was created from their beliefs about such a rock.

Zarkov, you’re welcome, but what for?

54

Lord Zarkov:

@ HB: your compliments of course

@ dedwrekka:

Given that neally all recorded impacts were shards falling down from Morrsileb, and also given the physical properties of warpstone the evidence seems to point towards it being so.

Plus (made of pure solidified black magic as it it) warpstone can hardly be described as ‘inert’ and the warping effects it has not only on nearbly life forms, but also the environment is legendary: there would definitly be warped ground around the impact, and many mutant ‘species’ would exist in the surrounding area. Additionally it would not be at all surprising if a daemon of some sort manifested in the crater, or even in the meteor itself.

Doing a quick check of Warseer for background on the Great Maw, it seems it is in the centre of a desert of warpstone, again pointing towards the meteor itself being so composed.

Anyway, regardless of the composition of the physical form, that is not the point. Even if they can visit the site of the Maw (hole), and see it, it doesn’t mean that the physical object is directly behind the divine power showed by the Maw (god) (beyond of course that caused by the trauma of the meteor’s impact). The crater is just a symbol, the impressive effects and apearence of that crater merely makes it more potent a symbol, but a symbol nonetheless. It serves to be a focal point through which the Ogres can better worship the concepts that is ‘Warpstorm Maw’, and when dealing with the way aetheric entities are empowered by emotions, focal points are very important.

55

dedwrekka:

The Ogre Kingdoms book says otherwise, though. And I take the word of the Army book over the word of Warseer.

56

Xander:

The Ogre Kingdoms book says otherwise, though. And I take the word of the Army book over the word of Warseer.

dedwrekka
Care to inform us? It would be nice to add to the conversation. :hat off
57

dedwrekka:

The Ogre Kingdoms book says otherwise, though. And I take the word of the Army book over the word of Warseer.

dedwrekka
Care to inform us? It would be nice to add to the conversation. :hat off


Xander
The Ogre Kingdom's Book says that those observing the comet before it crashed saw a face, and more accurately a mouth on it. When the Comet crashed it continued to burrow into the center of the earth even after the initial crash where any fairly innert comet would have just stopped after crashing in, and warpstone doesn't mutate itself and become active until consumed, absorbed, or contacted by something already alive and active.

Those Ogres who have visited the site of the impact report seeing a massive tooth filled maw with rippling muscles that descend deep into nothingness that could swallow a race like the Ogres and still be hungry for more. Those that visit the other side of the world see a toothy maw in the ocean surrounded by a vast whirlpool that sucks in ships to a deep gullet at the center.

I just don't think it's quite right to throw out the accounts or beliefs of the Ogres and just say that it was a warpstone comet because a somewhat similar comet that stuck Mordheim happened to be made of the substance (And I might note, that it along with the only other examples we have of warpstone comets broke up upon impact, and did not burrow into the earth). Other twin tailed comets have been seen and sighted that were not made out of warpstone, such as a gromril one that struck one of the dwarf holds.

I think it subtracts from the grandeur of the fantasy part of warhammer to simply state that all gods are simply manifestations in the warp.
58

Lord Zarkov:

The Ogre Kingdoms book says otherwise, though. And I take the word of the Army book over the word of Warseer.

dedwrekka
OK, I was assuming that the person who put the info on Warseer was quoting the armybook, as I said I don't have the book to check.
The Ogre Kingdom's Book says that those observing the comet before it crashed saw a face, and more accurately a mouth on it. When the Comet crashed it continued to burrow into the center of the earth even after the initial crash where any fairly innert comet would have just stopped after crashing in, and warpstone doesn't mutate itself and become active until consumed, absorbed, or contacted by something already alive and active.

dedwrekka
It could still be warpstone, prehaps with something in it? It's typically vague so people can believe what they want: it could be daemonic, or it could be alien.
I just don't think it's quite right to throw out the accounts or beliefs of the Ogres and just say that it was a warpstone comet because a somewhat similar comet that stuck Mordheim happened to be made of the substance.

dedwrekka
Firstly (from waht you've said) it could still be a warpstone comet and be correct by the accounts; on beliefs though: they dont directly affect the material world (just like in RL, lots of people have believed in various religions - that doesn't make them true), but if they believe that the Maw has some connection with the crater, then there will be a connection (due to their beliefs moulding the aetheric entity) but that gives not extra credence to the Maw being the crater. Also Mordhiem isn't the only warpstone impact, it's always been in the background that bit fall off Morrsileb and hit the world. For another major example, see Cripple Peak

(And I might note, that it along with the only other examples we have of warpstone comets broke up upon impact, and did not burrow into the earth)

dedwrekka
Well firstly, they didn't all break up on impact. There have been small shards that have fallen and remained whole, and again the big example of Cripple Peak which was a huge chunk that remained whole. Also the Mordheim comet did burrow a fair bit into the earth, see the Pit. Plus all such impacts, regardless of their substances, burrow fairly deep into the ground due to their massive impact velocity
Other twin tailed comets have been seen and sighted that were not made out of warpstone, such as a gromril one that struck one of the dwarf holds.

dedwrekka
But the majority of such impacting bodies are made of warpstone.
I think it subtracts from the grandeur of the fantasy part of warhammer to simply state that all gods are simply manifestations in the warp.

dedwrekka
And you're welcome to that opinion, but remember that Warhammer's not meant to be high fantasy, and I would argue that that's no bad thing, especially with what is added.
59

Sobek:

Well firstly, they didn't all break up on impact. There have been small shards that have fallen and remained whole, and again the big example of Cripple Peak which was a huge chunk that remained whole. Also the Mordheim comet did burrow a fair bit into the earth, see the Pit. Plus all such impacts, regardless of their substances, burrow fairly deep into the ground due to their massive impact velocity
All the way to the other side of the planet? I can accept the rest of what we know about the Great Maw being up in the air, but there is no way a regular comet could go straight through the planet, no matter how deep normal comets go.
60

Lord Zarkov:

No, granted, comets rarely even hit the mantle, or you’d get volcanoes springing up everywhere; but I’m doubtful that it’s the same maw on both sides as there would then be giant volcanoes on both sides as opposed to craters, unless there was a horrific amount of magic involved, which if anything supports the possed warpstone theory.

Anyway, as I’ve been saying, whether the comet is or is not warpstone, and whether there ios or is not a something sentinet in residence there is irrelevent for the existance of an aetheric entity in the form of the Maw. That amount of shared emotion and belief, particually with such a strong focus, will have formed one, and that will gain respective power and give respective ‘gifts’ to it’s followers.