[Archive] Playtesting Version 2 of the Indy GT list

Border Reiver:

Like many of you, I took a look at the list authored by Kevin Coleman for several of the East Coast GTs (US). I liked what I saw and decided to try and help out by playtesting.

Several others from this forum have also been at it as well - Grimstonefire, dredwrekka, and others have also been also busy.

For those that haven’t take a look. What follow are my thoughts:

First off, I’d like to say, thanks to Kevin for undertaking this and updating and expanding the CD army list.

Secondly, I’ll give a very short background on my bonfides - I’ve been playing for about 14 years, and CDs for 12-13 of those. I generally end up playing 2K pick up games at the local GW store, and in the occasional tournament. At the local store are a significant number of Canadian GT players and winners, and I have been to 2 GTs myself.

General impressions of this list have been favourable amongst the experienced players. They feel that it is fairly balanced and has a distinct and interesting flavour. some individual choices may be unclear, or open to abuse, but to a lesser degree than some of the official lists (daemons, VC).

What follows are my thoughts and opinions on the list:

Army Special rules:

Slave Lords and Unyielding are fine and need no changes

Gift From Darkness: makes no sense given the ability of the army to use magic - the dwarfs have it to balance out their lack of a magic phase. Given this army’s abilities in the magic phase, I would remove this rule. However, some consideration should then be given to having a hero level character generate dispel dice to offset this.

Animosity - should work in the same way as animosity in the O&G book, I do understand the legal reasons that you have not copied out the rules though. Proably cannot be changed for legal reasons unless this list is adopted by GW…

Treacherous and Dirty, Rotten, Sneaky - no problems here

Special Characters: I’ve only used Astrogoth, but I do not find him to be over the top for his abilities and his points cost. Generally, his abilities are consistent with his previous incarnation in 4th/5th ed.

Lords: The ability of a Hobgoblin Khan to allow you to field an all hobgoblin force is a nice touch - not over the top, but definitely allows some flexibility to the list.

High priest - the ONLY way to get a reasonable magic phase - and for tournament play where you are likely to face moderate to high magic armies such as Daemons and VC this is very likely a “must have” choice.

I recommend either getting rid of the Blessings of Darkness rule, and allowing a hero level caster to generate dispel dice (say a priest of Hashut or the daemonsmith). The ability to get additional DD and cast spells is a little unbalanced. The “prayers” of the High Priest are similar to those of the Empire warrior priest/arch lector, and the increased bound level is a good compensation for the chance of turning to stone when attempting to cast. With respect to the prayers (which is how I’ve come to see them)

Doomroar - was a great spell in 5th ed, but the changes to panic where it does not affect units in combat make it less useful now. That being said it still has it’s uses.

Lava Storm - excellent magic missile

Fists of Fire - identical to the previous lore - good spell

Eruption - potentially devastating spell. Having the spell require LOS would make sense.

Hail hashut! - Generally the first prayer cast - and it really makes the rest of the armies bound spells deadly, especially the next prayer from the priest. Given the large number of bound spells that are available to this army this prayer is OTT, and I would recommend getting rid of it in return for the old “Magma Pool” spell (caster is magically moved to any spot on the board) to make the bound item phase less OTT.

Petrify - good spell, but the lack of duration is potentially problematic and open to abuse. I would recommend that the effects last until the beginning of the Chaos Dwarf Player’s next magic phase, or until dispelled by the affected player.

Hero characters

Daemonsmiths - good idea, and having the daemon weapons exhaust their bound spell on a 1 is a good rule however, if the daemon escapes, then the weapons should lose ALL abilties, the thing that gave it its power has now left. Generally the weapons are appropriately priced and well explained. That being said the Bound spell in the Sword of Bedevilment needs to have a duration listed, as it is unclear at present if the effect lasts for one turn, or is RiP.

Right now I have been using primarily High Priests and Daemonsmiths, as my opponents typically have strong magic phases, and the surrender of this phase has required me to offset the lack of hero level casters with lots of Daemonsmiths and their bound items.

Core Units

Warriors - no comments here, these troops are what they are supposed to be. with the usual options, although strictly from a theoryhammer POV, chaos armour, shield and spears does make for a truly effective unit.

Eruption Gun - what base size? Rules aren’t OTT

Annihilators - the printed rules from the book and RH are generally understood by even beginner players (my 9 year old son understands them) - the abiltiy to get a S5 shot off is more then adequately compensated for by the short range of the weapon, the requirement to have the necessary troops, and the vulnerability of these troops to both shooting and HTH.

Hobgoblins - the minimum unit size change does prevent the abuse of the 20 pt disposable unit, but the cost of the basic hobgoblin should be altered to 3pts. Right now the hobgoblin warrior costs as much as a Warrior of Ulric (still a legal army from 6th ed) with either light armour or shield (both one pt upgrades for that unit type) and the WoU has a higher WS, and Ld and does not suffer from animosity. The miniumum unit size discourages the use of hobgoblin archers. I would recommend the addition of “Hobgoblin Archers” to the list, costing around 5 points and equipped with a bow and handweapon, with a minimum unit size of 10. this would encourage the use of the hobgoblin archer, giving the CD army it’s mid range missile fire.

Rabble - haven’t used them yet, but the fixed equipment costs for the unit run counter to how every other equipment upgrade is purchased across the game. This should be changed to a per model cost.

Hobgoblin wolfriders - the change to 5+ for unit size is welcome, as is the ability to take spears. These are fine as presented.

sneaky gits - formed units with no armour save and low initiative, even with two poisoned attacks do not make sense. Make them scouts and skirmish (despite some suggestions, do NOT give them a ranged capability), raise their cost to 8 or 9 points and move them back to special.

Special - the competition for special slots is and should be fierce - and it is. This is the mark of a well designed special troop list.

Death Rocket - Well thoguht out change to the unit from RH. However, I would drop the crew size to 2 models matching the number of crew that came with the original model.

Bull centaurs - make heavy armour standard, right now they cost more than a knight errant and are less effective due to lower armour saves. The clarification that they are US 2 infantry on a cavalry base is welcome. For fluff reasons, the unit should have the abiltiy to carry a magic banner.

Daemoneaters - My experience and the opinion of the others here is that the unit appropriately priced for its present abilities. The vulnerability of the unit with the chariot rule, coupled with the lack of any attacks other than impact hits and only 3 wounds justifies its present cost. However, instead of impact hits in combat rounds other then ones in which the daemoneater charges, I would make the attacks grinding attacks that come in initiative order.

Spear chukkas - no change

Obsidian Guard - not overpriced for what they can do. ItP, coupled with cause fear, and their base equipment means that at best, they are overpirced by one point. Dwarf elite infantry with similar stats are comparable in price, and I don’t think I’ve heard that Ironbreakers or Hammerers are overpriced.

Rare Units

Earthshaker cannon - the reduction of the price makes the confinement of the earthshaker effect to the unit hit a reasonable change.

Juggernaut - the cost prevents abuse of the juggernaut as a mount for all characters. Rather than blundrbusses, I would either equip the 10 crew with standard handguns or drop the large number of crew to 4 and shave them man 2 eruption guns mounted on the juggernaut. The Juggernaut should do impact hits and grind like a steam tank.

Inferno golems - overcosted compared to other units with similar capabilities. If the intent is to keep the cost as is, I would make the unit unbreakable (why should magical non-sentient constructs flee?), otherwise I would drop the base cost by 10 points a model. The construct weapons are overpriced, I would drop the cost to 30 points each, and allow the entire unit to be equipped with the same weapon (obviously the cost of the weapon would be per model)

Generally, I am finding this list to be fairly balanced and a bit underpowered if anything. The list has a definte feel to it that I as a CD player appreciate, and that others who don’t play can feel as well. The feedback from expeirenced players has been positive, and they ahve enjoyed assiting me with the play testing to date. The GW staff has also been supportive in allowing me to use the list in store.

Scion:

Where can you find the rules/list?

Border Reiver:

I linked to them at the top of my post.

mattbird:

(FYI- there’s a new, massively improved version being released this coming Tuesday)

A big thanks to all who have contributed so far!

dedwrekka:

Dont want to reopen old wounds here (And please don’t start a long argument on this one, please), but the Rules of the Warhammer main rulebook state that “Dwarf armies” get 2 additonal dispell dice. Taking away Gift of Darkness will mean that they need to add a descriptor or FAQ stating that Chaos Dwarfs don’t get those dice.

Of course, it doesn’t make them a powerful army, but it makes them able to compete with magic heavy armies easier. A lot of magic heavy armies will have twice or three times the number of power dice than most people have dispell dice. Gift of Darkness makes them a solid magic player, not by giving them more power dice, but by giving them a bit more dispell dice.

Thommy H:

Taking away Gift of Darkness will mean that they need to add a descriptor or FAQ stating that Chaos Dwarfs don't get those dice.
Yeah, that would be quite the hardship.

Border Reiver:

(FYI- there's a new, massively improved version being released this coming Tuesday)

A big thanks to all who have contributed so far!

mattbird
Which is my usual night to go out and play at "Veterans' Night" - any chance it might come out Monday so I can have a little time to make a list?

mattbird:

yup! I’ll see if I can get you something.

Scion:

Thank you for that. Should of read it properly. But most of the writing seems to be ins Spanish or at least another language, is this my computer or the file ?

mattbird:

(it’s called Lorem Ipsum placeholder text)

:wink:

Scion:

(it's called Lorem Ipsum placeholder text)

;)

mattbird
Eh? Can you tell me how to fix it :)

Thommy H:

It’s not something you can (or need to) fix. It’s gibberish that looks like words that editors put in articles before the actual text is finalised. It’s just to show you what it’ll look like.

Scion:

Oh thank you for that one.

cornixt:

It’s not gibberish, it’s Latin text. By Cicero I think.

EDIT: Looked it up, and it seems there are a large number of different versions. The original was based on text by Cicero but with several words and letters removed to resemble English text more closely than pure Latin. There are a number of Lorem Ipsum generators that go much further and use random Latin words in a loose sentence structure and others that just generate ransom words that look like Latin so that the text never repeats. I guess computers will continue to change things.

Thommy H:

Yeah, it’s not supposed to be legible Latin. I mean, it isn’t entirely random, but it is gibberish.

Kera foehunter:

HEY !! back on topic !!

are these rules that we can use ???

till we get are new ones ??

I would not mined to play test the rules

btw thanks B. R. for this

Border Reiver:

The rules are “official” only for the accepted games, however with opponent’s permission anything is possible.

Version 3 comes out next week - you can try those.

mattbird:

HEY !! back on topic !!
are these rules that we can use ??????????
till we get are new ones ??

I would not mined to play test the rules
btw  thanks B. R.  for this

Kera foehunter
playtesting would be great, and very helpful. The more feedback the better! I'd wait for Tuesday's V3 for testing- certainly for the magic phase if nothing else.

The list will be legal for use in some Indy GTs when complete. Right now mainly in the northeast US.

Alric:

Where did the inspiration for this list come from ?

I found a post at Warseer made back in early April.

Never really saw the Greenskins (aside from Hobs) as all that relevant in the army list anyways. Immortals, Tenderizers, Whirlwinds, Juggernauts, slaves, mechanical/demon constructs. All been mentioned in the recent fluff, can’t see why they can’t fill out the list.

Toss the Tenderizer/whirlwind as special choices, replace the Black Orcs with Immortals, add Slaves as a core, take a redone Juggernaught concept or Kollosus to add some flavor to the Rare choices, and bump the Bull Centaurs to special. Throw in unit upgrades or weapons teams like the old Bazooka and you’ve got a really nice, diverse list.
Quite a coincidence.

Thommy H:

The list in its basic form is apparently several years old, but I don’t think it’s much of a coincidence to create a list that sounds like that post on Warseer - most fan lists follow the same basic pattern as that post.