[Archive] [split] Chaos Dwarf design discussion

Archive [Archive] Chaos Dwarf Discussion
1

richard barby:

i think for gw its not doable to rerelease choas dwarfs under there currant fluff they would need a complete rewrite. im only basing this off of a few things i will try and explaine.

most armies have a real world counterpart empire brets tomb kings are clearly germany france and egypt respectivly

for choas dwarfs its Assyrian/Babylonian currantly middle east from syria to iran. there also clearly for want of a better word bad guys in the fluff. Its not even a gaming reason but you cant pose the white guys as the heros and the middle eastern as bad guys even in gaming back ground it would be really hard to sell that is not subtle racism at best blatant at worst. I think its a real shame as choas dwarfs are my first army and the only army i still own. there back ground was written in the 80s not post 911

i really hope im wrong with what i have said and there re done and smash all before them like they should do

2

Willmark:

Not sure I agree.

GW will obviously not make a Arabian army per say, but a chaos dwarf army? Who is going to be upset by that? The little people of the world (Since midget, or dwarf has a band connotation in today’s society). I doubt that the Middle Eastern world is going to take much offense since in their world view their art does not allow for the depiction of anything human or animal based.

3

richard barby:

Not sure I agree.

GW will obviously not make a Arabian army per say, but a chaos dwarf army? Who is going to be upset by that? The little people of the world (Since midget, or dwarf has a band connotation in today's society). I doubt that the Middle Eastern world is going to take much offense since in their world view their art does not allow for the depiction of anything human or animal based.

Willmark
its the people who take offecnce by proxi who would not like it. i completly agree most people who are part of choas dwarf really world equivalant would not care if they knew .but there are plenty of people who like to ruin other poeples fun/ lives who would play the race card at first sight of it with out looking in to it
4

rabotak:

most people in the near east arent even aware of their assyrian/babylonian history, and most people in the “west” wouldnt connect arab/islam connotations to the mesopotamian cultures… its would be more of a sales issue than a religious/cultural issue IMO, but no real need to change the fluff as a whole

5

Baggronor:

Its not even a gaming reason but you cant pose the white guys as the heros and the middle eastern as bad guys even in gaming back ground it would be really hard to sell that is not subtle racism at best blatant at worst. I think its a real shame as choas dwarfs are my first army and the only army i still own. there back ground was written in the 80s not post 911
Crazy talk imo. Doing a stereotype-heavy Araby or Cathay army is one thing, and yes, could be offensive if done badly, but Babylonian Dwarfs? Surely not. I don't see it as being any more offensive than Native South Americans as Lizardmen or Mongolians as Hobgoblins (that one is far dodgier imo).
GW will obviously not make a Arabian army per say, but a chaos dwarf army?
I don't see why not; as long as they are neutral like all the other human nations it shouldn't be a problem at all. I'm not saying its a safe choice, just that there aren't grounds for it to be an automatic 'no' either. It would be based on historical aspects and so could probably avoid all the modern connotations. The issue would be more about sales potential imo.
6

Grimstonefire:

Imo ‘arabian’ is certainly not the right image, that would mean turbans, sash covered faces etc. For the most part this would not be the right image for them as an army (says one of the few people who has a CD with a turban…).

I actually think from a design point of view there is probably a better reason for them not to have mesopotamian aspects as a primary focus.

Perhaps better to start a new thread and keep this to rumour discussions. :wink:

7

Gar Shadowfame:

#i think if ever gw will follow Hellcannon style, with main traits being leather/piercings/machanical

8

Grimstonefire:

Thread split on request, to keep the rumour section discussing rumours.

9

richard barby:

thanks for the move grim

10

Shakhorth:

Well Gw did make an Araby army at one point. Ok it wasn’t a warhammer army, but for the warmaster system. Filled with elephant units, camal riders and flying carpets. You can still order it through specialist games if I recall correctly. Must admit, it looks rather cool.

I’m certain they could produce such a thing on the warhammer scale. But I don’t the think they’ll release another ‘human’ army. Afterall that would be the fifth ‘human’ army in the warhammer world. Empire, Kislev, Bretonnia and Dogs of war being the other four. We could debate over the Dogs of war, but they do include a lot of ‘human’ units.

That being said, they certainly have the means to make a chaos dwarf army. But methinks Gw is very cautious to begin anything “new” these days.

11

Nazhur:

I would love a araby army similiar to the warmaster army. It´s freaking cool. I have always said soo. And I don´t think people would take offence. I don´t take offence when peopel suggest that vikings was crazy mushrooms eaters that raped women (Im from sweden) so why would a person from the middle east do the same? If Gw would insult there religion then perhaps but I don´t see Gw doing that because of a araby army. And a army of chaos dwarfs, no, noone would take offence. Or at least thats my view.

12

Baggronor:

If Gw would insult there religion then perhaps but I don´t see Gw doing that because of a araby army. And a army of chaos dwarfs, no, noone would take offence.
Exactly; there's no need to make a big deal of the details of their religion, focus on making a level-headed interpretation of an Araby army and it should be fine.
But methinks Gw is very cautious to begin anything "new" these days.
Sadly, this is true and the main reason why we likely won't see any new armies for a long time. Why release a new one, when you can just revamp an existing one and guarantee sales that way rather than risk a loss on a new army?
13

AssurBahniZharr:

I also think main problem with a new army is economical risk, and sadly i also believe that a restyle of Cd is a must (actually transforming them into a “new army” as well.

I love the Assirian/mesopotamian style but as stated here on CDO (don’t remember who, but i remeber it was in welcome 3d) i think that the problem is not from islamic culture but from Jewish culture:

Let’s face this (IMHO this is quite obvious) CD are more “Jewish” than mesopotamian (all are semitic people and ancient israel was in strict contact with babylonian and Syrian cultures). Thirst for gold, slavery, conquest and occupation of nearby countries (goblinoids), it takes (to me) not too much imagination to make an association with some false stereotype around jewish people.

Hashut himself is the merged copy of Baal and Moloch, ancient gods reported in the Holy Bible (worshipped by enemies of the ancient Istrael) : Sacrificies to Moloch were made by burning offerings in the belly-furnace of the god (some say even children = not storically confirmed), and Baal was an holy Bull (remebre the gold bull made after exodus form egypt?)      

This is not to give an explanation to CD problems, not at all, simply i want to say that, there should be some “real cultural” issue about CD, problem is not with islamic culture but “could” (to me) more realistically with jewish “culture” (stereotype)

I hope this opinion would not upset anyone=)

14

cornixt:

I don’t think many people would make that connection, and you yourself pretty much describe them as being the enemies of the Jews (although the Jews did have their own bull statues that were quite happily used for worshipping for a while, but this isn’t known by most people).

I don’t think there is any problem with GW using any of the three CD styles, they are all so far removed from modern day culture and stereotypes that it would be a leap that very few people would make.

15

Kered:

I doubt GW will go back to the cartoony big noses they seam to be going for a much darker theme though there might be some humor scattered about.

16

Hashut’s little helper:

I also think main problem with a new army is economical risk, and sadly i also believe that a restyle of Cd is a must (actually transforming them into a "new army" as well.

AssurBahniZharr
I could not agree more, you are completely correct.
I would like to see a little more of the 'chaos' element come through and less of the historical angle.
17

rabotak:

Let's face this (IMHO this is quite obvious) CD are more "Jewish" than mesopotamian (all are semitic people and ancient israel was in strict contact with babylonian and Syrian cultures).


...Sorry, the only thing about CDs that i see as some sort of jewish stereotype is the size of their noses, and i wouldnt even have noticed if it wasnt for an amused jewish friend of mine having pointed that out...
Thirst for gold, slavery, conquest and occupation of nearby countries (goblinoids), it takes (to me) not too much imagination to make an association with some false stereotype around jewish people.


thirst for gold is in this (fantasy) setting a dwarven attribute, while it was the jews having been enslaved (by egyptians around 1300 bc, then by the babylonians under nebuchadnezzar II around 600bc, although there is no archeological evidence except for the old testament) rather than enslaving others, and i never heard a single story about aggressive military actions taken by the jews against other nations such as conquest or occupation... sorry, this is simply not true
Hashut himself is the merged copy of Baal and Moloch, ancient gods reported in the Holy Bible (worshipped by enemies of the ancient Istrael) : Sacrificies to Moloch were made by burning offerings in the belly-furnace of the god (some say even children = not storically confirmed), and Baal was an holy Bull (remebre the gold bull made after exodus form egypt?)  
Baal, from the akkadian belum, the word for lord, is in ancient times the term used for many deities, the highest god of a given region in the levante area, mostly a weather god... it was never a holy bull, although the egyptian god baal, first noted under amenophis II, was sometimes depicted having two horns...
speaking of moloch, this was never a god at all until the deuteronomic redaction of the old testament, the phoenician term molc describes a certain sacrifical rite (no human sacrifices in this area, that is the whole levante and mesopotamia, at no time in history!), the thing "sacrificing children to moloch" is a roman invention, propagandha against the punic city of carthago, whereas the rabbinic tradition depicts moloch (remember, there never was such a god) as a bronzen statue heated with fire...  baal and moloch were, if we want to call them gods, never worshipped by enemies of the jews and didnt have the attributes you were speaking of...
dont believe everything the bible says, the old testament consists
of myths that were copied by older cultures and propagandha against these cultures...
I don't think many people would make that connection, and you yourself pretty much describe them as being the enemies of the Jews (although the Jews did have their own bull statues that were quite happily used for worshipping for a while, but this isn't known by most people).

I don't think there is any problem with GW using any of the three CD styles, they are all so far removed from modern day culture and stereotypes that it would be a leap that very few people would make.
qft. (actually all of the cultures in the region worshipped some form of bull, being a symbol of strentgh and continuity, see catal höyük or knossos for instance, or take a read of the gilgamesh epic.)
18

AssurBahniZharr:

Dear Rabotek, this is very interesting and between me and you quite correct…sorry to say that not all people in the world has such a knowledge, wants to have such a knowledge, may be interested in such a knowledge. Popular (i mean most normal people) culture is not usually so deep, and not all people is willing to make/listen to such a deep analysis.

If i forgot for a while what i know and what i believe, Cd are indoubtly an ironic, grotesque, ridiculous rappresentation of some stereotyped jewish attitude. And it makes no surprise…and i think that this was intentionally made, for fun!

Gw has always used popular images in their games and many many many connection to the real world…This is a fact…

As you can see Bretonnians are french, Empire is Medieval Deuthscland and not only in general themes

Have you ever read for instance about Innuendo Machiavenni in Empire BG? (Innuendo is clearly an omage to Queen, and maybe it can sound somewhat “italian” to you…but it has no sense at all - in italy Innuendo is only 1 thing : a song of freddy mercury…& Machiavenni = Niccolò Macchiavelli, a medieval/rinascimental philosopher politically involved)

Or Sigmar that is clearly “Conan the Barbarian”

Or 40K Cenobites are identical to pin-Head of Hellraiser series

Everywhere in every book you find quotes coming directly from our world…(movies, books, hystorical personalities, songs ; some funny, some sarcastic) i think this is why Warhammer world has a so big appeal…because you find always something you are very familiar with.

Even we love CD for different reasons because everyone can find some “quote” that makes him to love, collect, and paint the CD

Now, even if it has begun as simply “quotes” or “omages” during late 80’s they are now an “economical strenght” for GW.

I doubt that CD are completely out of these “quotes” and to me the closest related “quotes” are what i discussed above, their BG is a simple collection of middle-east jewish pre-christian quotes. As such I see them can hardly commercialised, today.

Warhammer is now made for masses, and is no long a player-made stuff for few guys.

Otherwise what could be the reason for their so long suffering?

They appeared in a time when GW was not yet a Multinational Company, they had imaginations, sculptists, time, money to invest in innovative ideas

The reason cannot be “few CDs sold” as The CD are clearly an army not made, not thought of to sell huge numbers of miniatures

You cannot doubt this. It always has been an army for few not for masses.

This causes to me such a suffering, as I like them, and i like them with Big-Hat.

This can’t be the main reason for neglection but i’m quite sure this is one.

19

Grimstonefire:

What I was going to post earlier is that the reason I don’t think the mesopotamian theme should be a main focus is because whilst the CD are the warhammer equivalent of ‘middle eastern’, they are predominantly an evil industrial nation of daemon binders.

Imo they should really play heavily on that, and only throw in a few small mesopotamian themed elements (like architecture, names, fluff links, maybe a themed units or two). There is only so much theming you can squeeze onto models.

Mesopotamian being different to arabic.

Hashut is based on Baal I believe, and from what I remember worship of Baal was widespread across the region at the time.

20

rabotak:

Dear Rabotek, this.... ....player-made stuff for few guys.
as if i hadnt noticed ;)

what i was trying to say is that i simply dont agree to your opinion of the
concept of 4th ed cds being full of jewish stereotypes (even more so with the arguments you brought up to underline your theory), and this being the reason of the cds being neglected for so long... it simply was an unpopular concept at the time which had nothing to do with jewish connotations, with its sales even inferior than they had expected...
What I was going to post earlier is that the reason I don't think the mesopotamian theme should be a main focus is because whilst the CD are the warhammer equivalent of 'middle eastern', they are predominantly an evil industrial nation of daemon binders.

Imo they should really play heavily on that, and only throw in a few small mesopotamian themed elements (like architecture, names, fluff links, maybe a themed units or two). There is only so much theming you can squeeze onto models.

Mesopotamian being different to arabic.
agreed, and i think if cds were to stay "middle eastern", the safest route under these political circumstances would be the mesopotamian one, although im not sure if that would be the most popular theme... but still the most sophisticated :)
Hashut is based on Baal I believe, and from what I remember worship of Baal was widespread across the region at the time.
it was a widespread term for a deity, but only because it wasnt one but many different gods adressed as "lord" (belum, or ba´al in hebrew), as mentioned, the highest god of the local pantheons, not being the same god (with different attributes and functions)... i believe hashut is more of a mishmash of ancient middle eastern ideas with the bull being one of the strongest and most consistent symbols of the region from the paleolithe aera on until the time of the achaemenides (~600-300 bc)