[Archive] The Daemonsmith's Handbook - Hellcannon

Archive [Archive] Daemonsmith's Handbook (LoA)
1

Nicodemus:



Week 7: Hellcannon




Welcome to the seventh chapter in the Daemonsmith’s Handbook! Please post your Hellcannon tips and tactics here.

Some suggested topics for discussion:

- Deployment

- Tactics

- Synergy with other units or strategies used by Legion of Azgorh

- Things to watch out for

2

Nicodemus:

Not sure I’ve got a lot of carefully thought-out stretegy for the Hellcannon… My basic strategy with the Hellcannon that works most games is: Turn 1 - shoot, Turn 2 - get into combat.   Most games I deploy a Daemonsmith/Sorcerer-Prophet within 3" of my Hellcannon so that I can get the re-roll for shooting on Turn 1 (remember that although the Hellcannon has the troop type “Monster” it currently benefits from the Daemonsmith’s ability to grant re-rolls when shooting, as per the FW FAQ). After this, however, I usually try to get it into combat on Turn 2 and forget about keeping it close to any characters that grant the re-roll.  If I manage to get out of combat again I usually try to setup for another shot unless I’m setup for a killer charge.  After any more shooting with the Hellcannon takes place I try to get it back into combat for sure if I can.

Obviously with the Hellcannon being Init 1 be wary for anything that forces an initiative test (Skaven Brass Orb). The Skaven spell Crack’s Call is just as bad for the Hellcannon too (remember that the Hellcannon isn’t a Warmachine so you don’t save on a 5+, it’s a Monster, so you have to take the initiative test with the abysmal Init 1!).

~N

PS And being a Monster the Hellcannon does’t deploy with your warmachines, which I’ve seen a few people do.

3

Da Crusha:

since The Hellcannon is unbreakable it works great to protect a flank. especially with its large base. also the fact that it is a monster is enough to rival some units let alone some fast cavalry or other war machine hunters. also works great with the Lore of death spell, Doom and darkness. cast doom and darkness on a unit and it will have to take Leadership tests at -3, shoot the hellcannon at it and make them take a panic test at -4 instead.

watch out for Lore of Death’s spirit leech. it causes the caster and the HC to roll off and add their leadership. for every point the HC loses by it takes a wound, the Leadership on the Hellcannon is only 4.

4

Bolg:

Wonderful for protecting you other warmachines, no 5 fast caf or similar stand a chance against him so you dont need extra units saving you points.

I love the S5/S10, it might have a smaller template than the death rocket, but can do a lot more damage. In many games I end up using it in combat but I like to get a few rounds of shooting off first.

And very useful: any unit hit by the template must take a panic test at -1. so for you first shot (if you have turn 1) find out where you opponents BSB and general is, if there is a scary unit, shoot it, it might run of the table before it can do a thing). This works very well later in the game if you cast Dark Subjugation first.

Remember its a monster+ handlers so if a cannon ball hits it, you have a 5+ crew save before you roll for multiple wounds.

(I’m actually not sure if the crew save also works in combat, reading the rules I think it does but at a tournament recently I was not allowed to roll for it)

And another thing I got wrong at first. It only needs it line of sight to charge, not to shoot (as it can shoot as a stone thrower you may turn it in the shooting phase)

5

Nicodemus:

Remember its a monster+ handlers so if a cannon ball hits it, you have a 5+ crew save before you roll for  multiple wounds.
(I'm actually not sure if the crew save also works in combat, reading the rules I think it does but at a tournament recently I was not allowed to roll for it)

Bolg
Yes, Bolg is right. The current rules from the WoC rulebook for the hellcannon (paragraph right before the profile stats) states: "When determining which models are hit by shooting attacks, the Hellcannon is hit on a 1-4 and the Chaos Dwarfs in a 5-6."

We need to keep an eye on the WoC over the next month or so, as it looks like there's a wave of WoC models coming out. Although there's no indications that there's anything special going on with the Hellcannon in terms of new models, there's supposedly going to be a brief update to the army book published in White Dwarf in lieu of a new army book (similar to what was done for Daemons of Chaos a few months ago). It's possible, although doubtful, that there may be some slight modifications to the Hellcannon rules.

~N
6

bas_2312:

Yes, Bolg is right. The current rules from the WoC rulebook for the hellcannon (paragraph right before the profile stats) states: "When determining which models are hit by shooting  attacks, the Hellcannon is hit on a 1-4 and the Chaos Dwarfs in a 5-6."

Nicodemus
It's actually even better. The armybook states the Hellcannon is subject to the rules for monsters & handlers, which in this edition means: "When the monster suffers an unsaved wound roll a D6. On a roll of 1-4 the monster suffers the wound as normal, but on a roll of 5-6 a handler model is removed instead. " So it's not just against shooting.

I'm not convinced the Hellcanon can pivot before shooting. The rule to pivot on the spot is specific to warmachines, but the Hellcannon is a monster that can shoot. It can shoot as a stone thrower, but nowhere in the stonethrower rules it's said that it can pivot before shooting, only that it can fire in it's line of sight.
7

Goltor Lintrepide:

I’m not sure this thread is the place to discuss it, but I was wandering : HC or Dreadquake Mortar?

8

Blackspine:

watch out for Lore of Death's spirit leech. it causes the caster and the HC to roll off and add their leadership. for every point the HC loses by it takes a wound, the Leadership on the Hellcannon is only 4.

Da Crusha
You use the highest leadership value for this. So the Hellcannon is LD 9...but on I tests, it still takes the lowest (really, not like I2 is doing it tons of favors)

The Hellcannon is a great psychological monster. It adds a very interesting threat to our list. Making units panic, from afar. As with most elite armies, we're often outnumbered. Making that one brick of (insert chaff/ tarpit name here). Having access to Doom and Darkness, or better yet, the -ld spell from our amazing lore can really mean dark times for many armies. Roughly half the armies out there have mediocre to lack luster leadership (non characters) and you can easily make them sweat.

As it fires like a stone thrower, there is a lot of inaccuracy with this beast. For Warriors of Chaos, I've almost stopped taking it entirely, as it's 1-2 shots a game usually veer wide. With our access to RE-ROLL, we can make this bad boy shine.

In combat, it is a beast, but only against the right match ups. It can hold up and win vs most infantry that are low-med. strength. It can terror bomb flanks and just hold down some units meant to deny you steadfast.
The Hellcannon victories RELY on thunderstomp. It has a few attacks for a wide base and not great WS. The thunderstomp turns the tide. If you're going against Cav/MI/ MC etc, you lose this. However, even losing it, you're unbreakable, so no big deal. You're just not going to win it. Careful as the Hellcannon isn't cheap and you'd ideally like to recoop it's costs.
That being said, holding a flank of your 25-40 Infernal Guard could be priceless.

The Hellcannon suffers against High ST troops, S5 and S6+ really chew through him. With a low I, it's doubtful that he'll get to hit back.

Cav units on the charge can often make mincemeat of the Hellcannon. I've seen Boar boyz , Dragon Princes, IC knights just obliterate him on the charge. So be careful.

In a comp-ed enviroment, they bring a bit of hate. Take two and you'll be facing doublehydraunkillablelordCauldronofBloodSacDaggerMindRazor6diceIWin! all day long.

Ultimately, The HC is a versatile tool and can get a few shots off, and vs. some troops just wreck their faces.
9

GodHead:

I'm not convinced the Hellcanon can pivot before shooting. The rule to pivot on the spot is specific to warmachines, but the Hellcannon is a monster that can shoot. It can shoot as a stone thrower, but nowhere in the stonethrower rules it's said that it can pivot before shooting, only that it can fire in it's line of sight.

bas_2312
It sure can. Check the new FAQ:
Page 109 �?" Shooting with War Machines.
Change �?oUnless specified otherwise, all war machine
weapons�?��?� to �?oUnless specified otherwise, all weapons in this
section (and all other weapons mounted on war machines)�?��?�
http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m2710122a_WARHAMMER_RULEBOOK_v1.6.pdf

Since it is a weapon in that section (a stone thrower), it gets all the rules, including pivot.

Hellcannons are the ultimate flank protection. Shooting Unbreakable T6 Monster and Handler units. Too hard for most chaff to tie up, too powerful to ignore. They force hard decisions on your enemies.
10

Bolg:

As it fires like a stone thrower, there is a lot of inaccuracy with this beast. For Warriors of Chaos, I've almost stopped taking it entirely, as it's 1-2 shots a game usually veer wide. With our access to RE-ROLL, we can make this bad boy shine.

Blackspine
Totally agree, always bring a Deamon Smith Baby sitter for the reroll, getting to reroll that S5/S10 template is awesome.
11

propervillanz:

I absolutely love Hellcannons. In my opinion you should take 2 to get the most out of what they can do. Like all these distinguished folks have already pointed out nothing is better at holding down and anchoring your flanks.

Likewise, the -1Ld panic test is great at picking off units that not withing the “Inspiring Presence” and(or) “Hold Your Ground” range. Or taking out/widdling down dangerous u before they make contact with you. S5(10) can take a bite out of just about any infantry in the game and many cavalry units as well. Couple that with Flaming Sword of Rhuin and even T5-6 start sweating.

In the psychological aspect of the game, these guys are aces. Put one down and your opponent gets worried, put down two and all of a sudden your opponent will start revising their battle plans. These revisions will most likely lead to a mistake or two on your opponents part.

A build i love is 2 Deamonsmiths+ 2 Hellcannons+ 2 Magma Cannons, 1 of each above set up on each flank. All of a sudden your opponent has to worry about a potential of 4 S5 templates knocking on their door. Which, thanks to the Deamonsmiths’ abilities, are a fairly accurate 4 S5 templates.

I personally sit back with Hellcannons and fire until mid to late game. I feel they work best with ziggurat style lists that revolve around staying still and shooting. Do to their big template an inability to flee, they can be be a liability in many cases, while also exposing your flanks to things like ambushers or highly mobile enemy units.

The only thing that sucks about these guys is that they compete with the Destroyer for Rare points. However, picking which one depends on how one wants his/her army to function as either way you will most likely catch some flack whether it be the lone Destroyer or the double Hellcannons.

In closing, bring two. Even in a WoC army 2 of these babies will but some hurt on your opponent in the shooting, close combat, and unspoken psychological aspects of the game.

12

Da Crusha:

watch out for Lore of Death's spirit leech. it causes the caster and the HC to roll off and add their leadership. for every point the HC loses by it takes a wound, the Leadership on the Hellcannon is only 4.

Da Crusha
You use the highest leadership value for this. So the Hellcannon is LD 9...


Blackspine
Why would you think that? the spell is specifically cast on a model, not the unit, and it is not forcing a leadership test.
13

zhatan87:

Why would you think that? the spell is specifically cast on a model, not the unit, and it is not forcing a leadership test.
The FAQ which talks of what an unmodified leadership test is. It's not well written but many people think that it means that you can take the best value for every unmodified leadership, no matter if it's an unmodified leadership TEST or an unmodified leadership (such for spirit leech)

For the initiative test, you can now take the I2 of the dwarfs...

Finally, don't forget that the hellcannon causes a -1 panic test for every unit touched, even if it doesn't inflict any wound...
14

Bolg:

watch out for Lore of Death's spirit leech. it causes the caster and the HC to roll off and add their leadership. for every point the HC loses by it takes a wound, the Leadership on the Hellcannon is only 4.

Da Crusha
Took me a wile, but I get it. if I face Death magic I'll deploy my HC more to the back and side to stay out of the 24" range of that spell. great tip. thanx!
15

bas_2312:

Wouldn’t the Hellcannons Ld be 9 since it can use the highest Ld in the unit for a test?

16

Da Crusha:

Wouldn't the Hellcannons Ld be 9 since it can use the highest Ld in the unit for a test?

bas_2312
but its not a leadership test. you are simply adding the leadership value to the roll.
17

Da Crusha:

Why would you think that? the spell is specifically cast on a model, not the unit, and it is not forcing a leadership test.
The FAQ which talks of what an unmodified leadership test is. It's not well written but many people think that it means that you can take the best value for every unmodified leadership, no matter if it's an unmodified leadership TEST or an unmodified leadership (such for spirit leech)

For the initiative test, you can now take the I2 of the dwarfs...

Finally, don't forget that the hellcannon causes a -1 panic test for every unit touched, even if it doesn't inflict any wound...


zhatan87
hmmm I found the FAQ about it.
Q: When taking a Leadership test, sometimes you have to take it on
your unmodified Leadership. What is your unmodified Leadership?
(p10)
A: Your unmodified Leadership is the highest Leadership
characteristic in the unit. So the Leadership from any
characters in the unit itself (but not from outside the unit, from
Inspiring Presence for example) with a higher Leadership can
be used unless specifically stated otherwise.

Warhammer FAQ 1.6
hmm that is a silly ruling. well I suppose the unmodified LD value of the hellcannon is 9.... it doesn't make sense to me but it most certainly makes him better.
18

zhatan87:

hmm that is a silly ruling.
Agree
They speak about leadership TEST, and then, the question is "what is your unmodified leadership?".
Some people think that it works only for LD test, and others for every unmodified LD...
19

Blackspine:

It IS an odd ruling…but that’s how it goes.

Good to have a LD 9 monster/ cannon that does NOT have to deploy w/ warmachines.

If you have a

Hellcannon,

Destroyer

Lord on Great/Bale Taurus

you have a crud ton of monsters for a 2500 list

Trust me, I’m none too thrilled about the recent FAQ.

MC, Chars on Monst. cav mounts (eagles, pegs etc) get the higher of the T. Youch

20

Dr.Mojo:

Can one use a Hellcannon in a CD army if using RH rules?