[Archive] The Daemonsmith's Handbook - Infernal Guard

MLP:

The way I use them in placing two blocks of 6*4 between and just a little in front of my warmachines. When my opponent comes close I reform them into a horde of 12 wide and fire away, mostly with a devestating effect.
If things go well I'm able to shoot twice before the charge comes in which is a pottential 138 shots. The first 69 on a 5+ because of the reform, the second one on a 4+. Ouch.

Singleton Mosby
I prefer to set them up in horde(preferably two ranks so all can fire) at the start, on an average table you have enough room to do it and that way you don't need to reform and lose out on to hit rolls. I find that it also makes them safer againsts templates, war machines and spells.

Nicodemus:

You need 20+ to re-roll wounds, not 30+.

Singleton Mosby
Thanks Mosby! Well spotted... that was my typo. Guess I should re-read posts more carefully before posting ;)

Bolg:

from the last FAQ:

Q: If a unit with missile weapons has the Razor Standard, do

their shooting attacks have the Armour Piercing special rule?

(Reference)

A: No.
So so dont stick it on your unit of blunderbusses anymore.

fattdex:

Blunderbusses have armour piercing rule anyhow…

Smog:

The way I use them in placing two blocks of 6*4 between and just a little in front of my warmachines. When my opponent comes close I reform them into a horde of 12 wide and fire away, mostly with a devestating effect.
If things go well I'm able to shoot twice before the charge comes in which is a pottential 138 shots. The first 69 on a 5+ because of the reform, the second one on a 4+. Ouch.

Singleton Mosby
Can you fire in the same turn that you reform though?

Grimbold Blackhammer:

You can if it is a Swift Reform.

Grimbold Blackhammer

Karring:

–EQUIPMENT OPTIONS–

-Basic-

One of the most resilient anvils in the game, and with S4, for sure the can get back the hit. I think all LOA armys should have at least one block of them. 20+, although I have used them in 19 (+1 with Castellan), and they have made the job.

-Fireglaives-

Good strength both in distance and close combat. In units of 10 guys without other options they are pretty cheap for LOA cost (170 points), and they conform a good support unit or shield for your warmachines. Actually, I do not recomend them in units more of 10 doubted to waste points (only frontal and second line can shot).

-Blunderbusses-

Extremely expensives, but if they can shoot only a pair of times, they can open a hole in enemy line. The problem is you should use them in units of 20+ for acumulate all bonuses of the weapons. The good thing is that, in difference of FGs, they can still use shields in close combat, so they are quite resistent. I have used them in a long line of 10, unit of 20, in front of warmachines. They also do a good psicological work.

Anyway, you could also use them in units of 10: D3 multiple shots without penalties is nice enough.

-Great weapons-

(Not used yet)

-COMMAND-

-I use to equip Overseer with Pistol everytime I can: a champion with three attacks and WS5 could beat enemy heroes in duels.

-About magic standards, I think the Flame one is nice both shoot and combat units of IG, not only for the army concept but also because it can convert your unit in certain monster killers.

Grimbold Blackhammer:

Karring - an Overseer (Deathmask?) only has two attacks. Giving him a pistol does not change that.

Karring:

Karring - an Overseer (Deathmask?) only has two attacks.  Giving him a pistol does not change that.


Grimbold Blackhammer
Of course it changes it: a pistol counts as and addtional hand weapon: +1 attack in Close Combat.

Nicodemus:

Karring - an Overseer (Deathmask?) only has two attacks.  Giving him a pistol does not change that.


Grimbold Blackhammer
Of course it changes it: a pistol counts as and addtional hand weapon: +1 attack in Close Combat.


Karring
As per the pistol profile on p91 of the BRB: the pistol is unlike other weapons, as it can be used as both a missile weapon (i.e. not melee) and as a close combat weapon, and it explicitly states that it follows the rules for having an additional hand weapon.

On that same page in the book is "Two/additional Hand Weapons": This only applies to models on foot, so giving a pistol to a mounted character will not give them an extra attack, but otherwise the model gains an extra attack. An additional snag though, is if the model is equipped with a magical weapon, then they don't get the added attack (this would apply to any characters, not an Infernal Guard champion who only has a mundane weapon).

Out of the entire army list it's only the Infernal Guard champion and the Infernal Castellan (for 5 pts, provided you don't give him a magical weapon) who can take advantage of this extra attack... so if you've got 2 pts left over, give your IG champion the upgrade!  
--  And just to clarify:
Infernal Ironsworn champions have ensorcelled (magical) weapons, but they can't be upgraded to hold a pistol anyway.
Castellan starts with a mundane weapon and can be upgraded with a pistol.
Daemonsmith Sorcerer starts with an ensorcelled hand weapon, so giving him a pistol won't grant an additional attack.
Sorcerer-Prophet starts with a magical Darkforged hand weapon, so giving him a pistol won't grant an additional attack.

Thanks for pointing this out Karring, I don't know about anyone else, but I don't usually even consider taking a pistol, so I kind of missed this benefit from taking it up until now! :cheers
~N

zhatan87:

Talking about pistol, I think that I have found something RAW not to loose the rule of hailshot blunderbusses :
In this rule, they talk about 20 models or more.
Take a unit of 19 (for this example).
If you give them a castellan (very useful as they need to be in a large line 10+ to fire in two ranks of 10 models mini), and if you are in 10 models in 2 ranks, they can benefit from the rule (only 19 blunderbusses are firing).
But if you give the castellan a pistol (and a magic weapon 5 pts if you want him to keep the benefit of its shield), there is 20 models firing at the same target at the same time… As they don’t talk about models WITH blunderbusses…

Tell me if I’m wrong or not please:) As I found this rule very hard to use, if you need to be at least 11 models in line if you want to give them a hero…

Karring:

Thanks for pointing this out Karring, I don't know about anyone else, but I don't usually even consider taking a pistol, so I kind of missed this benefit from taking it up until now! :cheers
~N

Nicodemus
You are welcome, dude

Da Crusha:

@Zhatan 87: the only problem I have with that is the unit only has to take one casualty and that would half the effectiveness of the unit (no reroll to wound). and putting them 11 models across is only going to add 20mm to the length of the entire unit its not an entirely different formation or anything like that. it is out of the norm though.

@ Nicodemus and karring: but the pistol doesnt have the special rule extra attack, the brace of pistols do. if we go ahead and use the paragraph to give us the additional hand weapon bonus then that would mean a brace of pistols would benefit from additional hand weapon AND extra attack, wouldn’t it?

zhatan87:

the only problem I have with that is the unit only has to take one casualty
19 is just for the example... I won't play them by 19 only...:)
and putting them 11 models
The goal is to put them 10 models front (in order to have 20 models firing). But with a castellan in the first rank. The question is : if the castellan has a pistol, does the others blunderbusses benefit from their special rule (reroll to wound).

Nicodemus:

@ Nicodemus and karring: but the pistol doesnt have the special rule extra attack, the brace of pistols do. if we go ahead and use the paragraph to give us the additional hand weapon bonus then that would mean a brace of pistols would benefit from additional hand weapon AND extra attack, wouldn't it?
The pistol and brace of pistols are closely related, but presented in separate ways.

A brace of pistols has two weapon profiles, one for close combat and one for ranged combat. For close combat the Brace of Pistols grants one extra attack that isn't Armour Piercing, and ranged it grants Armour Piercing, Quick to Fire and Multiple Shots (2).

So with a Brace of Pistols up close you explicitly get +1A and ranged you get Multiple Shots (2) - which, rules-wise, is trying to do the same thing, except that when ranged the Brace of Pistols is at -1 To Hit if using the multiple shots component of the special rules. Remeber too that although you're getting an extra attack with the Brace of Pistols the 8th ED FAQ states that a Brace of Pistols requires two hands (therefore negating any other carried weapon).  

The profile for the straight-up Pistol, on the other hand, explicitly states that it is (Shooting) which gives AP and Quick to fire. Although not explicitly stated, this then defaults back to that lead-in paragraph which says that it can be used in close combat following the rules for an additional hand weapon, but because the Pistol does not have a listing for special rules associated with "Combat" the Pistol does not grant the AP special rule. You still have to look at the paragraph above the weapon profile again and remember that the pistol follows the same rules as an additional hand weapon, therefore granting +1A. There is no reason to ignore the first paragraph describing how pistols work and thereby not gain the +1A, that paragraph applies to any type of pistol weapon, whether it is a Pistol or Brace of Pistols.

Hope that's not too jumbled... it's taken me ages to type and re-type this with my brken hand!
~N

Singleton Mosby:

Blunderbusses have armour piercing rule anyhow...

fattdex
Was going to say "No they haven't!!!!" but decided to check before opening my mouth. And what do I see :o they have armour piercing indeed.

I've been using one or two units of blunderbusses in my army for quite some time. Now I will love them even more :hat off On the other hand, how on earth could I've overlooked this.....:mask
and putting them 11 models
The goal is to put them 10 models front (in order to have 20 models firing). But with a castellan in the first rank. The question is : if the castellan has a pistol, does the others blunderbusses benefit from their special rule (reroll to wound).


zhatan87
Why put them on a ten model front?
I mostly use my Blunderbusses in units of 23+ Castellan. During deployment I put them in 6*4 formation in between two warmachines. When an enemy comes close enough I make a swift reform from 6*4 to 12*2 which will not only shield my warmachines but lets all the models fire. Due to the Castellan being stubborn I don't care about being charge. The more as I can fire a potential 70 armoun piercing shots with a re-roll to wound before combat :D. Just have to love these guys.

Grimbold Blackhammer:

It appears I stand corrected! Thanks for crawling through all that Nicodemus!!

Grimbold Blackhammer

Bolg:

I do not agree on a single pistol granting an extra attack. You might be right but there is another thing:

If the model in a unit carry 2 special close combat weapons to use at the start of the first round of close combat (the entire unit must use the same weapon, but characters can always choose seperatly"

Page 89 3rd paragraph of the rulebook.

As we know champions are not characters, they must use the same option as the rest of the unit: Hand weapon+shield.

Karring:

I do not agree on a single pistol granting an extra attack. You might be right but there is another thing:

If the model in a unit carry 2 special close combat weapons to use at the start of the first round of close combat (the entire unit must use the same weapon, but characters can always choose seperatly"

Page 89 3rd paragraph of the rulebook.

As we know champions are not characters, they must use the same option as the rest of the unit: Hand weapon+shield.

Bolg
Anyway, in Champions section of rulebook it is written that Champios, althought wearing the same equipment of his unit (like the other command miniatures), can sometimes take special equipment.

So, in these cases, I think they can use it, even if it is different of the rest unit equipment.

zhatan87:

Why put them on a ten model front?
I've seen your thread. Just because 10 model front is already very large...
And because there is some drawbacks in your idea :
swift reform : you need to keep your center, which means your new first rank is farther than before. As you are longer, models on the ends are farther, and need your unit to be closer to have all your models in range. With 2 more minis, it means probably nothing (as I don't want to draw anything to see how close you are from a unit if you want that everybody in your unit shoot)
And potentially, as you are in horder size, in your example (24 models), you have 4 more models which can fight in hand to hand if you are 10 models front...:) But you have more models firing in your formation (2*12) than in mine:)
I must admit that 10 or 11 or 12 models front won't change manything very often...
I just tried to find an idea to minimize the front of such a unit to minimum front : 10 models (if you can make firing 20 models).