zorn sabretooth:
@ swiss hey i wanted Mccain to win all i’m saying that cheney was evil
In the words nof Dubya himself “Border Relations between Canada and Mexico have never been better”
The Flying Beaver:
I think John Stuart Mill put it best: "Conservatives are not necessarily stupid, but most stupid people are conservative."An Obama victory won't suddenly change these people.So fringe, nut job Christians speak for everyone of the Republican party? So in that mindset fringe nut job ultra liberals speak for the democrats? Extremism on either end of the spectrum is just as bad. Extremism from either party does not impress me.
The Flying Beaver
What I hope is Obama is a centrist with all that entails and ignores the extreme elements of both parties.
Willmark
I wasn't really making a statement on the nature of the republican party per se. I was more making a comment on how the media's prattling on abot how racism has suddenly stopped with a black president, which is a load of crap. Are the majority of republicans of the Religious Right? Probably not. (It should be noted, however, that 15% of Americans consider themselves a part of the Christian Right. That's a big voting bloc.) Does the Religious Right have a disproportional influence on the Republican party? Yes. That horrifies me. Also even if the crazies are a minority of the party, it's worth noting that one of them was running for Vice President. How many democratics call for teaching creationism in high schools? Or abstinence-only sex ed?
You see, I happen to be gay. I see people like Jerry Falwell, Pat Robertson and Ted Haggard prattling on about how I'm part of a satanic conspiracy to destroy your marriage and start raping your children in the street. Folks like George Bush, Sarah Palin, Rick Santorum, and countless other elected republicans drink this piss up and start implementing discriminatory policies. The GOP raised a fuss a while back about anti-bullying policies that would protect gay children! What the hell!?
You see, I happen to not believe in any god(s). Folks like George Bush Sr. come on TV and say that atheists shouldn't be considered patriotic. Senator Elizabeth Dole ran attack ads accusing her opponent of being an atheist. Who the heck cares if a candidate is an atheist? The answer should be "nobody." The answer is "most people, especially republicans." There's an easy two examples of why I think that the Republican party is trash. When I see the talking heads of the party come out and talk about how I'm lowly slime unworthy of basic rights and respect, I somehow find it hard to consider the GOP as an entity with intact sanity, let alone worthy of public office.
Are the Democrats champions of gay rights, or making efforts to seperate church and state? Heck no. They're not worthy of any praise. But given the choice of doing nothing to ensure my rights versus actively trying to remove what rights I do have, I'll go with the Democrats. Standing still isn't useful, but at least it's not a step back. Is Pat Robertson's Christianity compatible with the majority of republicans? Not really, though Christian fundamentalism is on the rise. But even if they're a minority, they're still the ones calling the shots. It's Ted Haggard who'd talk to George Bush every week, not Joe Six-Pack. You may not be one of the people calling Obama an atheist muslim commie-terrorist, but you voted for a ticket that enables (Mccain) and encourages (Palin) that kind of irrational thought.
There is plenty of extremism to go around. America's just as polarized as ever. But the extremism of the right has gone so far in this campaign that the Canadian conservative party would be grilled as ultra-partisan if they tried to take a stance that would be considered moderate in the US! Seriously, people. If Obama were to move to Canada and run for office, he could fit in nicely with the Conservative party. Yet America considers him a "liberal." The political spectrum is seriously out of whack south of the border.
[/quote]Get over yourselves, guys. Obama was the better choice by far, but be prepared to hold his feet to the fire. It's not going to be an easy ride.Your opinion, and one that you are entitled to, and one that not everyone has to share despite that statement. Interesting on how you can presume to tell others what to think...
The Flying Beaver
Willmark
My intention in that post was to be a buzzkill to the people screaming "YES WE DID!!" because Obama's in power now. I think that people should be a bit more realistic. Obama's not promising anything particularily radical and racism will be a powerful force for decades to come. Those expecting major changes are probably in for a disappointment.
Another thing needs to be mentioned: Liberal does not mean left wing! Liberalism is the belief that government influence in people's personal lives should be minimized. The founders of the liberal school of thought were the first proponents of free trade and deregulation of the economy. They'd be considered pretty right-wing on the economy. The conservatives of the time were fans of the protectionist economy of Britain, which made them more centrist than the liberals. The meaning of Liberalism hasn't changed, it's just that the number of people who know what it means has declined in the United States. Neo-Liberalism is the most popular economic belief in the western world right now, which is classical liberalism on steroids. "Deregulate everything because the market will solve everything come hell or high water." The Republican party has been dominated by neo-conservatives since Reagan. Neo-conservatism is actually a liberal school of thought, not a conservative one. It takes the neo-liberal economic ideals and adds in a reactionary (regressive) stance on social issues. "The government can't touch the economy, but it can tell two men they can't love each other." Is Obama a liberal? Yes. Technically, so is Mccain. Are they left-wing? Not at all.
two_heads_talking:
You know, I can’t see this thread going anywhere, besides people facing off and unintentionally pissing each other off. It might be worth a look at shutting it down…
I’d suggest those who do have something to get off their chests, to find an appropriate forum and discuss politics until you turn blue in the face.
Just a thought, I’d rather not ramp anyone up… conservative, liveral, left wing, right wing, fanatic, lazy, couch potatoe. Regardless of your beliefs, Obama is the man for the next 4 years… Only one thing will change that, and that is if he somehow dies, and then it’s Biden… If you can’t handle that, tough, it’s what it is…
cornixt:
The problem with politics is that people can’t help but tell each other how they disagree with such a fundamental part of someone else’s deeply held beliefs, and so they get offended very easily.
The reason why politics in the US is so different from everywhere else is that there are so many people who have been barely attached to communication with the rest of the country/world for so long. Canada seemed to avoid it since there weren’t so many farms and proportionally more of the population lived in larger towns. The internet was set to link them up with the rest of us, but it has mostly just linked the crazies up with each other to unite them against socialists and non-Christians. It also had the effect of making the internet shift politically
I saw a great map of the US that showed how each county voted. Almost everywhere that there was a large city, that county was strongly democrat, even for the surrounding areas if there was a large tech centre. A number of red states went blue this election, simply due to the increase in technology centres. As the US grows, this will continue, both political parties will continue to drift to the left, just as in Europe there is a shift to the right, as both societies influence each other. There will be sudden shifts in both directions everywhere for a while though, because people react strongly when they see change happening quickly, resisting with backlashes, politicians representing one thing but doing another (such as the labour party in the UK). It will all balance out in the end, maybe 40 or so years.
The Flying Beaver:
It will all balance out in the end, maybe 40 or so years.I really, really doubt that. 40 years from now is when we've gone way past the tipping point on the earth's climate. Water and food shortages will mean lots of war, riots and displaced people. It'll be anything but stable.
Willmark:
Who wants that? Its entirely possible to vote for a candidate and not agree with all of their stances, or in the case of McCain I wish he had chosen someone else. Or further: with agreeing with on nothing in the case of Palin.
I wasn't really making a statement on the nature of the republican party per se. I was more making a comment on how the media's prattling on abot how racism has suddenly stopped with a black president, which is a load of crap. Are the majority of republicans of the Religious Right? Probably not. (It should be noted, however, that 15% of Americans consider themselves a part of the Christian Right. That's a big voting bloc.) Does the Religious Right have a disproportional influence on the Republican party? Yes. That horrifies me. Also even if the crazies are a minority of the party, it's worth noting that one of them was running for Vice President. How many democratics call for teaching creationism in high schools? Or abstinence-only sex ed?
The Flying Beaver
You see, I happen to be gay. I see people like Jerry Falwell, Pat Robertson and Ted Haggard prattling on about how I'm part of a satanic conspiracy to destroy your marriage and start raping your children in the street. Folks like George Bush, Sarah Palin, Rick Santorum, and countless other elected republicans drink this piss up and start implementing discriminatory policies. The GOP raised a fuss a while back about anti-bullying policies that would protect gay children! What the hell!?No argument there, but I'd say the last two elections have been pretty strong rebukes of the ultra conservatism. who really cares who is gay? Its none of my business; a very small minority who talk a great deal in teh republcians act life the gay lifestyle is sinful, a small minority.
The Flying Beaver
There is plenty of extremism to go around. America's just as polarized as ever. But the extremism of the right has gone so far in this campaign that the Canadian conservative party would be grilled as ultra-partisan if they tried to take a stance that would be considered moderate in the US! Seriously, people. If Obama were to move to Canada and run for office, he could fit in nicely with the Conservative party. Yet America considers him a "liberal." The political spectrum is seriously out of whack south of the border.Or its entirely possible that north of the border its out of whack> I have no vested interest in defining it, but plenty outside of the US sure seem on bent on defining what we should think.
The Flying Beaver
unfortunately Ron Paul...had no shotIt's comments like this that will not endear you to others. Nor will it make it particularly easy to make one willing to even see your side of matters.
I know, it's very disappointing that a racist, creationist fossil won't be able to abolish public education. At least he's not an extremist...
In short I voted for experience, its what caused me to not vote for Bush either time and to vote for Gore in 2000 and Kerry in 2004.
Kera foehunter:
WE NEED TO LOCK THIS
so that we don’t lose the admin. team!!!and a old mod
The Flying Beaver:
but I'd say the last two elections have been pretty strong rebukes of the ultra conservatism.Such as? Aside from a bunch of republicans getting booted out of office in the 2006 midterm elections, I can't think of any examples. Senator Mccain isn't, by any account, an ally of any progressive movement but he's not as gung-ho about it as others in his party. Presidential Nominee John Mccain, is a different case. He moved sharply to the right when he started campaigning. If anything, the republicans seem to be going further and further right, not less so.
Or its entirely possible that north of the border its out of whack> I have no vested interest in defining it, but plenty outside of the US sure seem on bent on defining what we should think.Political norms are relative by country. The political centre is not- it's the midpoint between socialism and capitalism and that doesn't move. The political norm in Canada is slightly right-of-centre. The US is a place where someone who can barely be considered a centrist is considered a "liberal" under the political climate.
Now, let's provide some support for my criticisms of Dr. No. Check out this fun bill: A bill to make all Iranian Students in the United States ineligible for any form of federal aid. There's the lovely "We The People" act which would gives states the power to uphold sodomy laws. Or his numerous attempts to pass bills which would abolish the department of education. Fun fact: He voted against giving Rosa Parks a congressional gold medal (he was the only one in congress to do so). Congress voted 414-1 on outlawing genetic discrimination. Guess who voted against it? Or what the white supremacists he hired as staffers? Or what about his newsletters? My criticisms of Ron Paul aren't baseless. The man is a nutjob.
Swissdictator:
From a historical stand point, the USA is still somewhat centrist… but it’s not a point… it’s an area. Depending on how the leadership falls. Though I do agree, it is more to the right. We take for granted worker’s rights, universal suffrage, etc as you and I grew up with that. We’re very lucky, and most of those reforms in a historical context are socialist… but you know what? That’s welcomed without question so we don’t associate it. “Socialism” has become a buzzword to shut down discussion, so we use it when we want to slam down on something so its meaning has shifted.
I only mention the above as I’m a history nut and plan on being a professor someday so I nitpick a little. So don’t take any offense, none was intended.
I deleted some specific issues, and if you’d like… I’d like to chat with you TFB, you seem like an intelligent person and I’d enjoy talking with you. AIM/Yahoo is Swissdictator if you’re up for friendly political debate.
The Flying Beaver:
I use neither AIM nor Yahoo. You’re welcome to add me on MSN or even facebook any time though- flying_beaver@hotmail.com
Willmark:
Well I’m thinking this little experiment into politics on CDO was interesting, in the interests of having good Wa, we’ll end it here.
As noted please move it to PM or IM.