[Archive] What really annoys me about GW

ForlornHope:

Being a Dark Eldar player and a soon to be Chaos Dwarf player i tend to be stuck with liking the armies that apparently GW likes to ignore.

This is what annoys me…

Lets take Dark Eldar for example, Awsome concept unique army and playstyle…why have space marines gotten 2 new codexes and dark eldar is still waiting?

Apparently this is due to poor sales on miniatures and lack of interest

this is where it turns to retards on ice…

The reasons for the poor sales and lack of interest is a lack of updated models and rules. Yet GW says they dont want to hurry to redo them because of a lack of interest in the models and rules. Its like a vicious circle of idiocy. How about GW you redo the models and rules so that you dont have a lack of interest anymore.

You dont need to update space marines every 2 weeks, yes they make the most money this is why they dont need an update every kid who reaches 40k age (apparently 8 years old) wants to play space marines you dont need to coax them the coaxing has been done the moment they see them the models could be from 1st edition they would still buy them.

Wake up GW

Chaos dwarfs lost popularity because the army didnt recieve good rules or updates and you dont want to redo them because in the past threy were not popular. See a pattern? Does GW understand the saying “learn from your mistakes” or will they continue to leave a large portion of possible buyers out in the cold because 15 or so years ago an army they released horribly didnt go so well? Good business is all about taking chances and going for it not sitting back and rereleasing space marines and increasing prices till your customer just doesnt care anymore.

sorry needed to vent.

Kera foehunter:

well done! Well if people would just lession , they would know what would be a great seller.

Fallen246:

Somewhat linked to my dislikes.

Occasionally, GW makes a box set of something that looks crap compared to it’s predecessor (Dark Elf Corsairs were way cooler, now they look too heavily armoured to live off BOATS) OR they don’t sell enough of something and have to cram it into a box set deal or something to load it off (Silver Helms).

Frankly, plastic Corsairs closer to the previous ones I woulda bought loads of, and say if High Elves had Silver Helms as maybe a Core Choice instead of a Special choice they might be bought. (in the HE armylist Dragon Princes are a superior heavy cavalry choice for not much extra in points, GW sucks). Alternatively, make them fearless or something cos they’re supposed to be the most impetuous, or make them have an free movement at the start of the game or something. Not let them keep failing.

snowblizz:

I wrote the following in response to much the same question on Direwolf.

It is still beyond me why GW does not support a CD book, or at least make CD’s a part of the Warriors of Chaos book. It used to be you could build multiple lists out of one army book. If they feel their isn’t enough background or variety to justify a book, make them part of the other Chaos mortals with seperate army listings. At the very least put out a PDF to let players use what they currently have. How could you not at least encourage sales of CD figs? If the sales justify it, you could release a book and new figs.

Regards,
Jeff
  
GW logic you see. You can only support so many armies so you support the ones who have a massive fanbase and always those first.
Others get put on semi-permanent hiatus. Of course the hiatus armies aren’t selling very well so it only makes sense to put resources to the big sellers with the massive fanbase and to then give them stuff first. Like new units and also keep updating those armybooks more frequently (with the aforementioned new units). Then you notice that the hiatus armies still aren’t selling very well so you make it even harder to get the miniatures. This surprisingly means they don’t sell particularly well anymore so more resources go into popular armies that has to have new units added to validate the decision to update the core rules and make new units available. Unsurprisingly it is almost impossible to justify updating those old armies that don’t really sell well so it is better to once again go with a safe bet and just update those popular armies that by now are down to a massive three in number.

I nothing of the above made sense then you have just qualified for a managerial position at GW. If it did make sense you can only be a
marketing executive. If you thought “that was a load of bull” you’re most likely normal. Congratulations, you get to be a frustrated customer
of GW. Here buy the latest incarnation of this updated core army (there are only three and they work in all the gamesystems).

Thommy H:

Chaos Dwarfs were a fully supported army in the 90s. They had their chance to sell: they didn’t. Any complaints about the paradoxical nature of not supporting an army that doesn’t sell when it only doesn’t sell because they don’t support it unfortunately don’t actually hold any water - Chaos Dwarfs had a shot, and they just weren’t that popular. They’ve only become popular due to their niche status, which makes playing and collecting them a sort of weird badge of honour. Compare this website to the sites for other, fully supported armies. Whose is better? Which has the more devoted members?

GW’s business model is based on selling armies in waves - they used to just throw stuff out randomly, but that’s not how they do things any more. When they release an army, they make sure you have everything you need within a few months and then leave that army out of the loop until the time comes to update. This avoids situations like the 5th Edition release of Bretonnians, when certain troop types weren’t released until almost a year after the Army Book came out (anyone with that book will notice there’s no pictures of Questing Knights in there - they didn’t come out until the Perilous Quest campaign pack was released).

But, the price for that coherence and completion is that it’s not worth these big splash releases for ranges that don’t sell. You can’t release Dark Eldar as often as Space Marines, because they don’t make as much profit. So Space Marines keep showing up and Dark Eldar have to wait. The myth, of course, is that armies that are released or re-released “instead” of the less popular armies somehow “take their slot”. This was a charge levelled at Ogre Kingdoms by Wood Elf players towards the end of 6th Edition, and it’s nonsense. Remember that it’s all one company: every new edition of Space Marines that comes out is more money in GW’s pockets to pay for the more obscure armies that will come out if the fanbase exists.

You can’t blame them for actually selling what their customers will buy though, can you?

two_heads_talking:

Here buy the latest incarnation of this updated core army (there are only three and they work in all the gamesystems).

snowblizz
Really? Spazz marinez hurr work in fantasy and LoTR? Brilliant.. Who needs Chaos Dorfs when you can haz Spazz marinez hurr??..

snowblizz:

Here buy the latest incarnation of this updated core army (there are only three and they work in all the gamesystems).

snowblizz
Really? Spazz marinez hurr work in fantasy and LoTR? Brilliant.. Who needs Chaos Dorfs when you can haz Spazz marinez hurr??..


two_heads_talking
Totally.
At the speed they are updating 40k they'll soon catch up to fantasy and finally for the celebratory 10th edition of both games (in 2017) they'll just fold both games back into each other. The release will feature such gems, from a now senile JJ, as: "we always wanted to do that, you kids might not remember but back in the old days the games were quite similar and 40k was an off-shoot of WHFB not the other way around. We thought we'd make the hobbyists a favour, since there's only one army left in each core system and only they are selling very well. So now you can play Space Marines (low-tech human allies available), Chaos (it is eternal and omnipresent after all) with completely different miniatures for every unit and Elves (LotR version, can't have fantasy without elves and besides someone made a typo while securing the license agreement for the fatal 13th Tolkien movie which said GW must produce elf models in perpetuity) include somewhat surprisingly a Skaven Clan Moulder Giant Mole. We don't know quite how it got there (or what Skaven, let alone Moulder are) but we all thought it was a smashing idea that deserved to be included somewhere."
Sarcastic? Moi?

@Thommy H,
obviously, GW is a business and needs to make what sells, but just because something didn't quite sell 20 years ago doesn't necessarily mean it can't be done now. After all saying that CDs 'had a chance' is somewhat unfair considering they were never properly supported anyway. Electric cars are turning out to be a fairly good idea after all having lingered close to a century in obscurity. And much of the problems the american car-manufacturers face is their inability or unwillingness to adapt to changes in customer preferences. Many things infeasible 20 years ago are completely possible sometimes even silly not to do.
Can we say GW is doing "splash releases though"? Orks get new things in January, one year after their "splash release", same with Empire and Orcs. It seems more staggered now than before (6th edition WHFB, 3rd/4th 40k). Of course it doesn't compare to the 80's and 90's when armies could go literally years without having units and models were made when they were and released when finished instead of in coordinated army efforts.

Thommy H:

they were never properly supported anyway.
Yes they were. They had a book with exactly the same content as an Army Book that was marketed alongside all the other Army Books as an equivalent product - the only reason it was "White Dwarf Presents" was because, like Necrons several years later, they were first released through a series of articles in White Dwarf. As the book says, putting it all in one publication was better than asking people to order back issues of White Dwarf.

They had a full range of plastic and metal miniatures, including a special character model, which was pretty good considering the special characters were included as a afterthought in the book. It also shows you that Chaos Dwarfs had a series of releases, not just one quick splurge (compare the catalogue on the wiki page to the models shown in the book - you can see they filled the gaps in the range later on).

In the 5th Edition Battles Book, Chaos Dwarfs were included alongside every other army on equal footing - even appearing before Skaven, not just shoved in at the end like in Ravening Hordes. The picture of two armies fighting (equivalent to the huge battle between Orcs and High Elves shown near the start of the current rulebook) even featured them! Many gamers' first look at a Warhammer army would have been Chaos Dwarfs.

The idea that they never got a fair shot is pretty unfounded. They just didn't sell very well. They might now - but complaining about how illogical it might be to hold them back is not the way to solve this issue. If you want Chaos Dwarfs to be reintroduced, GW have to see that there is a thriving potential market for new models. A good way to demonstrate this would be to have a very active and well-supported fan forum for them, with competitions and a webzine.

Hey...hang on...

Godbob and his jolly rogers:

Just to say GW did make Dark Eldar book and wanted it to be very good because it had been so long since they had a book but after play testing they found that it was to good and started again so LM are now in Feb instead of Dark Eldar

snowblizz:

they were never properly supported anyway.
Yes they were. They had a book with exactly the same content as an Army Book that was marketed alongside all the other Army Books as an equivalent product - the only reason it was "White Dwarf Presents" was because, like Necrons several years later, they were first released through a series of articles in White Dwarf. As the book says, putting it all in one publication was better than asking people to order back issues of White Dwarf.

They had a full range of plastic and metal miniatures, including a special character model, which was pretty good considering the special characters were included as a afterthought in the book. It also shows you that Chaos Dwarfs had a series of releases, not just one quick splurge (compare the catalogue on the wiki page to the models shown in the book - you can see they filled the gaps in the range later on).

In the 5th Edition Battles Book, Chaos Dwarfs were included alongside every other army on equal footing - even appearing before Skaven, not just shoved in at the end like in Ravening Hordes. The picture of two armies fighting (equivalent to the huge battle between Orcs and High Elves shown near the start of the current rulebook) even featured them! Many gamers' first look at a Warhammer army would have been Chaos Dwarfs.

The idea that they never got a fair shot is pretty unfounded. They just didn't sell very well. They might now - but complaining about how illogical it might be to hold them back is not the way to solve this issue. If you want Chaos Dwarfs to be reintroduced, GW have to see that there is a thriving potential market for new models. A good way to demonstrate this would be to have a very active and well-supported fan forum for them, with competitions and a webzine.

Hey...hang on...


Thommy H
And yet the Necron codex doesn't say "White Dwarf presents" does it? Nor do I feel those 4 units makes up an army. Has any other "modern" army (with which I mean 5th ed and later, where it seems armies have been release more en-masse than by dribbles) been released the way CDs were? There's precious little material beside that which is reprinted in the "armybook". Most "real" armies a more thought through armybook plus at least as much attention in WD than CDs got for their whole armybook.
I would contend they certainly did not put as much effort into releasing CDs as they did for the 5th ed HE armybook (which was a re-write), and I'm probably not the only one
Of course I would also say that the past few years has seen a decline in quality of the effort put into releases. They just don't seem as thorough as when I started buying WD regularly around 240ish. I still remember the Land Raider and Space Wolves releases, lots of articles and attention, you got feel that they were all exited about these things. Nowadays even a new edition hardly gets any more attention than 2-3 articles in one WD magazine. It feels more like standard release pattern C5XsA (in triplicate) than something they are genuinely exited about. Despite using the word excited about 15 times in those 3 articles.

However I do agree that what we (and I use "we" very broadly) here do is probably much more effective than any amount of complaining.

EDIT:
@Godbob, they do play testing? Since when...

Godbob and his jolly rogers:

EDIT:
@Godbob, they do play testing? Since when...

snowblizz
lol although they don't seem to see mistake a easliy, it show that the DE codex had one hell of a mistake :P

ForlornHope:

Thommy,

Even if they were totally supported, they came out in a time before warhammer had the popularity that it does now, there was no internet like now, no Warhammer online or other slew of games, no dedicated forums.

Also not to mention the old chaos dwarves took a huge chance with those rediculous hats. I will bet you everything i own that the hats contributed greatly to the failure of the chaos dwarfs. Ya sure a few people think they are cool but a few people think beating up homeless people is cool too. Im sure 90% of possible chaos dwarf players such as myself were turned off by the stupid appearance of the hats.

it was a mistake just like putting the dark eldar in the starter box with a totally disproportionate space marine force that would kick their ass every time and lead all the new players to believe they sucked and thus bringing about the “dont play dark eldar they suck” phrase which i myself used for a while before playing them just because other people told me they did.

I have heard countless people comment on how cool the hellcannon crew looks and if GW followed through and redid the chaos dwafs with the new look which beats out regular dwarfs im sure they would make an amazing comeback.

Thommy H:

I will bet you everything i own that the hats contributed greatly to the failure of the chaos dwarfs
I'll take that bet.

ForlornHope:

I will bet you everything i own that the hats contributed greatly to the failure of the chaos dwarfs
I'll take that bet.


Thommy H
Obviously your going to take the bet your a hat lover and a hat lover refuses to accept that a majority of players dont want their army to look like "Stunto the Chaos Clown" from some saturday morning cartoon.

most new warhammer players are teenage boys and teenage boys want to have armies that look "bad ass" why would they choose a bunch of top hat wearing midgets over a heavily armored chaos barbarian with a great axe and demon horned helmet?

you didnt quote this part of what i said
Ya sure a few people think they are cool but a few people think beating up homeless people is cool too

ForlornHope
some akward things have a group of people that like it but a majority dont like it. you are in the minority and will obviously defend the akward hats till the death.

snowblizz:

EDIT:
@Godbob, they do play testing? Since when...

snowblizz
lol although they don't seem to see mistake a easliy, it show that the DE codex had one hell of a mistake :P


Godbob and his jolly rogers
The sad sad thing is when I saw someone noting that WoC was never playtested externally. It basically said after Dark Elfs they "let the playtesters go", though it doesn't necessarily mean they can't start doing it again.
I often feel after book releases that GW should take on the suggestion that "given enough monkeys and typewriters..." and actually use their "social networks" in a manner any modern business does. They'd have so much to win from it (and something to loose most probably).
The Dark Eldar update was a fairly successful attempt by all accounts? done through their development forum.

Godbob and his jolly rogers:

I must say that most new players are young and all there interested in is how big they weapon looks

But I don’t like the hats myself but you can’t blame the fact that GW ditched them because people didn’t like the hat

And think this is GW and thay like every thing origenal and if that means giving them hats then hell are they going to have hats

Also there hats weren’t that bad

ForlornHope:

But I don't like the hats myself but you can't blame the fact that GW ditched them because people didn't like the hat

And think this is GW and thay like every thing origenal and if that means giving them hats then hell are they going to have hats

Godbob and his jolly rogers
Well they obviosly saw the fault in them because the hellcannon crew dont have them.

two_heads_talking:

Well, they do still playtest, both internally and externally. I know, because I’ve playtested a few armies. I also know that all my input can be overturned and ignored easier than sneezing from pepper in your nose.

The Dark Eldar were supposed to be the ying to the Space Marines yang. And quite rightly, it was a comporable army, but not the way it was produced in the starter set. A well played Dark Eldar army at the time of 3rd edition would dominate a space marine army, but most Dark Eldar players couldn’t fight their way out of a wet paper bag, again at the beginning of 3rd edition.

Oddly enough, I started working for GW just as 3rd 40k and 5th Edition fantasy were released. I’ve play tested most of the armies at least at a preliminary stage and some at an advanced stage… Currently though, playtesting is mostly done in house, as many of the old playtesters out of house, were sneaking pdf files of the codex out to the public. So, the rest of us pay for the idiotic sneak peaks given out during prior playtest runs.  So, blame the lack of playtesting out of  house on the lack of moral fiber from the average gamer douchebag…

forlornhope said

"I have heard countless people comment on how cool the hellcannon crew looks and if GW followed through and redid the chaos dwafs with the new look which beats out regular dwarfs im sure they would make an amazing comeback. "

That’s all fine and dandy… How many are countless? 100, 1000, 450?  I know of, over 7 years of working for GW, at least 323 that would like to “never, ever, ever see a stupid Chaos Dwarf again.” their quote, not mine. You see the thing with the internet, and social circles is that those involved in them really do t hink what goes on within their circle is the same thing outside their circle… but honestly the vocal minority that frequent sites dna post up, really are about 10-15% of the actual community that utilizes GW product. So to be honest, we have to realize and accept that a Chaos Dwarf army is a niche army at best and hopefully, with some great insight, and some further “great chaos dwarf type models” prduction, we’ll get to see a fully visualized and thought out Chaos Dwarf army and that CDs won’t end up like squats who just became stunty guadsmen… We don’t want Dwarfs that are chaosy, we want Chaos Dwarfs…

Onii One Orc:

I’ll be the first to admit that when I first heard about Chaos Dwarfs and saw pictures, I thought they were stupid. And yes, it largely had to do with the hats. No matter how cool the CD backstory is, the miniatures are what people will look at first. If the miniatures suck, then people will be turned off.

It took seeing Xander’s tutorials, and some of the other awesome conversions on this site, to make me do a 180 on my opinion of the evil little buggers. I’m all for helms/masks, and the big hats are more of a nostalgia thing for me. I’ve even seen some big hat armies that I like(tjub’s). But evil dwarves deserve equally cool miniatures, and the Hellcannon crew is a d*mn good start.

And no matter how well supported the CD were in '94, it may have helped if their army book didn’t have ‘White Dwarf Presents’ on the front; to me, that doesn’t say army book so much as “reprinting of articles from WD”. No matter how official the WD rules were, to my mind those three words - White Dwarf Presents - made them less important than an equivalent, “proper” army book.

Thommy H:

and a hat lover refuses to accept that a majority of players dont want their army to look like "Stunto the Chaos Clown" from some saturday morning cartoon.
This is the weirdest thread I've ever seen. You say "hat lover" like it's a slur. Is there anything more than people bashing GW and treating a game of toy soldiers like it's Serious Business here?

Everything in this thread has been dragged up on every Warhammer forum a million times. They don't playtest...they neglect armies...big hats look stupid... no one's going to convince anyone that their side is in the right, and tension is already (somehow) running high.