[Archive] Who to be the leader of the rebellion against the Chaos Dwarfs?

Archive [Archive] Chaos Dwarf Discussion
61

Swissdictator:

Perhaps, and I believe they are not connected. Similar though.

However Bilbo has a good point: Have you ever seen a female orc?

Maybe the rebel leader WAS female! The rest of them just went into hiding! HA!

That’s it! The Rebel leader was a female orc!

62

dedwrekka:

1. I swear you say that to annoy people like me!
2. He certainly isn't too far from the dark side
3. You assume that fantasy and 40k are directly related.

cornixt
I didn't know it annoyed you so. Why does it annoy you so, are you really an Orc and don't like the Fungus reference? :)

I just don't like the assumption that they are related just because there are similarities. I don't mind the cross-references that GW put in each, but GW has only ever said "40K is just fantasy with laserguns".  If you managed to burn all 40k books that ever existed (not always a bad thing!), there would be no suggestion from anyone that Orcs are fungus or even plantlike. It just bugs me so much even though it is silly :hashut


cornixt
There's a reference to Orc "Spores" in the BR.

*Pulls out "The Big Book of Annoying References"*

Page 124, 4th paragraph from the top, second from the bottom, first from the right, second from the left, second sentence unless you're reading in some language that goes backwards in which case it's the second to last sentence and you wouldn't be able to understand it unless you put it up to a mirror.

And I Quote:
"Quite Probably their insidious spores were unwittingly introduced to the world by the star vessels of the Old Ones, although possibly they drifted through the voids of space and came to the world by their own means."

Or for those backwards readers
".means own their by world the to came and space of voids the through drifted they possibly although ,Ones Old the of vessels star the by world the to introduced unwittingly were spores insidious their probably Quite"
And for those people: ".you hate I"

-----------

Oh, and I'd point out that Grimgor is the only known Black Orc to begin his Waaaagh! in the Dark Lands, and he's mysteriously missing and eye and covered in powerfully crafted armor.
63

Swissdictator:

I think it’s getting a bit off topic guys.

So what about the rebel leader being a female Orc?

64

BilboBaggins:

I just don't like the assumption that they are related just because there are similarities. I don't mind the cross-references that GW put in each, but GW has only ever said "40K is just fantasy with laserguns".  If you managed to burn all 40k books that ever existed (not always a bad thing!), there would be no suggestion from anyone that Orcs are fungus or even plantlike. It just bugs me so much even though it is silly :hashut

cornixt
OK, You don't like the Ork/Greenskin/Plant Matter references. I haven't read the 40K Orc book (other than the line in it that says Orks never lose). I just kept being told by the Ork players and GW staff they were from plant matter or fungus.

Now having the Uruk-hai (Think Black Orcs) in the LOTR movies being shown as coming from the ground like plants and fungus would be a closer reference to Fantasy. I usually equate Fantasy closer to the mythic fantasy stories or Lord of the Rings.

Saruman bred the Uruk-hai.
Chaos Dwarfs bred the Black Orcs.

I really should re-read the LOTR/Hobbit books again. I used to read them every year or two but haven't read them in too long period of time.
65

dedwrekka:

I think it's getting a bit off topic guys.

So what about the rebel leader being a female Orc?

swissdictator
Actually if that's the question, then the posts about Orcs being fungus (like Orks) applies. In which case, there are no female Orcs. However, there aren't any male orcs either.
66

Swissdictator:

Blast. Now I feel the temptation to make the Eddie Izard Orc.

Here’s a thought. Perhaps one of the Orc gods (or both?) are named after the main leader or two of the rebellion? Afterall isn’t it the aftermath of the rebellion that lead to the flooding of the Old World?

67

BilboBaggins:

Blast. Now I feel the temptation to make the Eddie Izard Orc.

swissdictator
Or a Dame Edna Orc. :)
Here's a thought. Perhaps one of the Orc gods (or both?) are named after the main leader or two of the rebellion? Afterall isn't it the aftermath of the rebellion that lead to the flooding of the Old World?

swissdictator
Interesting, very Interesting. But if they are to be the makings of GODS then they should even be more powerful than Grimgor. Possibly both have Grimgor's fighting profile but additional abilities (Like one being a powerful magic caster).

Maybe have the Gods of Chaos give them a choice of continuing the battle or become leaders of all the Greenskins battling tougher opponents forever.

Better, the Chaos Gods (Khorne, Nurgle, Slaanesh and Tzeench) seeing them take mortal wounds raise them up to be lesser gods to control the greenskins until the end of time not realizing that these new gods would become nearly as powerful as themselves.
68

Servius:

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This message was automatically appended because it was too short.

69

Xander:

Afterall isn't it the aftermath of the rebellion that lead to the flooding of the Old World?

swissdictator
Where is that stated?
70

BilboBaggins:

Muad’did = mouse.

His chosen name was Paul Muad’dib.

It was his son Leto who became the God Emperor of Dune.

Read the Dune books several times also.

Aren’t the Gods of the Greenskins Mork and Gork?

71

Swissdictator:

I thougt something caused the Orcs to flood in, and it was the ex-slaves running away.

72

dedwrekka:

I thougt something caused the Orcs to flood in, and it was the ex-slaves running away.

swissdictator
What caused at least one flood of orcs (from what we know) was the mountains cracking open thanks to a certain Slann Mage Priest. Which caused the halls and tunnels under the Dwarfs to be rent asunder (something tells me the CD had considerably less to worry about here) and from which Goblins, Orcs, and Skaven erupted.

Also, Orcs are also mentioned as being on the world almost as long as the other races (Even said to be a constant thorn in the side of all the races), however, so the destruction that the dwarfs met wasn't the first flood of Orcs. And they certainly existed all over before the Old Ones left the world.
73

Hashut’s Blessing:

Actually, there ARE female orcs. There’s a female orc cheerleader model. OOP of course.

74

cornixt:

The spore reference assumes that they are using the literal meaning of the word. If GW really wanted to clear it up then a single sentence in their army book or in the greenskin parts of thr rulebook would have done. And you don’t necessarily need both males and females for a creature to reproduce.

To get back on topic:

I like the idea of the leader being held in perpetual torment, give an interesting backplot about greenskins planning to free him and lead them to victory. I think someone has previously said that the CD defeat of the slaves coincides with a huge wave of greenskins assaulting the Empire, but I haven’t checked it out myself.

75

dedwrekka:

The spore reference assumes that they are using the literal meaning of the word. If GW really wanted to clear it up then a single sentence in their army book or in the greenskin parts of thr rulebook would have done. And you don't necessarily need both males and females for a creature to reproduce.

cornixt
However, without one, the the other is meaningless in a way. If it produces without females then there are no males. If it produces without males then there are no females. If it produces asexually then there are none of either.

However, I see this as actually being quite relevant to the question at hand, as without knowing what they are or how long the orcs live the point is somewhat moot. If they live forever until being killed, then Grimgor is a likely candidate as at least beign present. If they live a short time then Grimgor cannot have been part of the large uprising (though may have been part of a subsequent one). If they have different sexes then it could have been of either sex. However, even if orcs have them, would Black Orcs?

Additionally it brings up the question of how long Black Orcs have been around, and thus how long ago the uprising happened. If it was a recent event, then any notable Black Orc could have been the leader. If it happened a long time ago, then why is there only one known (or at least successful) Black Orc general, or why have they only appeared recently in the timeline.
To get back on topic:
I like the idea of the leader being held in perpetual torment, give an interesting backplot about greenskins planning to free him and lead them to victory. I think someone has previously said that the CD defeat of the slaves coincides with a huge wave of greenskins assaulting the Empire, but I haven't checked it out myself.
Do we know when the Black Orcs rebelled or when the revolt was put down? Without that it's impossible to tell if there even was a wave of greenskins (though I've delved into them a long time, and can't find any references to that aside from Waaagh!s and the original attacks on the Dwarf Holds).
76

Thane Godri GoblinSlayer:

The Dwarf Empire fell to a number of things, just not the greenskins and skaven.

1. The War of Vengeance decimated both High Elves and the Dwarfs, although dwarfs weren’t to bad off since they won.

2. The Slann Mage Priests tried to reshape the continents and caused natural disasters that killed hundreds of thousands of dwarfs.

3. The skaven, ogres, greenskins, and gnolbars all started kicking us while we were down.

4. This is what really did dwarfs in, STUBBORNESS. We fought for years over the smallest of holds and outposts, losing thousands of warriors.

77

dedwrekka:

The Dwarf Empire fell to a number of things, just not the greenskins and skaven.  

  1. The War of Vengeance decimated both High Elves and the Dwarfs, although dwarfs weren't to bad off since they won.

  2. The Slann Mage Priests tried to reshape the continents and caused natural disasters that killed hundreds of thousands of dwarfs.  

  3. The skaven, ogres, greenskins, and gnolbars all started kicking us while we were down.  

  4. This is what really did dwarfs in, STUBBORNESS.  We fought for years over the smallest of holds and outposts, losing thousands of warriors.

Thane Godri GoblinSlayer
You say that it wasn't the skaven or greenskins, but point out that they were a part of it. I was only pointing out to the Orcs' part in the downfall of the Dwarf Kingdoms, not that they were the ones that did it all by themselves. Regardless, Orcs, Goblins, Trolls, and Skaven were responsable for the loss of many holds.
78

Thane Godri GoblinSlayer:

The Dwarf Empire fell to a number of things, just not the greenskins and skaven.  

  1. The War of Vengeance decimated both High Elves and the Dwarfs, although dwarfs weren't to bad off since they won.

  2. The Slann Mage Priests tried to reshape the continents and caused natural disasters that killed hundreds of thousands of dwarfs.  

  3. The skaven, ogres, greenskins, and gnolbars all started kicking us while we were down.  

  4. This is what really did dwarfs in, STUBBORNESS.  We fought for years over the smallest of holds and outposts, losing thousands of warriors.

Thane Godri GoblinSlayer
You say that it wasn't the skaven or greenskins, but point out that they were a part of it. I was only pointing out to the Orcs' part in the downfall of the Dwarf Kingdoms, not that they were the ones that did it all by themselves. Regardless, Orcs, Goblins, Trolls, and Skaven were responsable for the loss of many holds.


dedwrekka
Fair enough, but the only thing I don't understand is how hundreds of thousands of greenskins just popped out of knowwhere. The skaven and goblins were probably underground, but that doesn't explain hundreds of thousands of orcs.

Some of the orcs probably came from the east, but not all of them could have.
79

Kera foehunter:

yes there female orc look at the blood bowl cheerleader!!!

80

dedwrekka:

The Dwarf Empire fell to a number of things, just not the greenskins and skaven.  

  1. The War of Vengeance decimated both High Elves and the Dwarfs, although dwarfs weren't to bad off since they won.

  2. The Slann Mage Priests tried to reshape the continents and caused natural disasters that killed hundreds of thousands of dwarfs.  

  3. The skaven, ogres, greenskins, and gnolbars all started kicking us while we were down.  

  4. This is what really did dwarfs in, STUBBORNESS.  We fought for years over the smallest of holds and outposts, losing thousands of warriors.

Thane Godri GoblinSlayer
You say that it wasn't the skaven or greenskins, but point out that they were a part of it. I was only pointing out to the Orcs' part in the downfall of the Dwarf Kingdoms, not that they were the ones that did it all by themselves. Regardless, Orcs, Goblins, Trolls, and Skaven were responsable for the loss of many holds.


dedwrekka
  Fair enough, but the only thing I don't understand is how hundreds of thousands of greenskins just popped  out of knowwhere.  The skaven and goblins were probably underground, but that doesn't explain hundreds of thousands of orcs.  

  Some of the orcs probably came from the east, but not all of them could have.


Thane Godri GoblinSlayer
Actually I've been thinking on that a bit, it's possible that, with the dwarf holds that were effected mainly being in the World's Edge range, that the CD could have been attempting to sap the dwarf kingdoms with slaves. Or that their mining network undercut that of the dwarf kingdoms (which were always richer in minerals than the Dark Lands). Sort of like Slant drilling for oil, your opponent begins mining at the top of an ore seam, so you mine from the middle or end of the seam and work both ways, mining them out before they realize it.
yes there female orc look at the blood bowl cheerleader!!!!!!

Kera foehunter
Which is old enough to be considered ancient, and Bloodbowl is already established as being in a separate (divergent) universe from Warhammer Fantasy that shares some parallels.

However, I'm not saying that there aren't female orcs. GW has left the race ambiguous enough to allow their existence.