First The Old World battle vs Wood Elves 🪓

[Vacationist]

Hey y’all. So I had my first battle, both with the new rules, as well as my fledgling chorf army, yay! I chose a wonderful opponent for a first time outing: my former British #1 ranked Sylvan elf player brother, who has been deeply involved with super competitive tournament scenes, as well as some guys with hideous WAAC mentalities

We were playing a standard kind of battle line scenario, with a diagonal setup of terrain that we’d promised to test out for a tournament that’s coming up. I’m posting our lists in the bottom.

I’ll base my comments off his succinct and rather accurate battle report here:

So right off the bat I make a major deployment mistake, essentially putting my artillery right up against the deployment edge. Good call, Anders Got charged by fresh wild riders turn 1.

No comments here, I did my best to salvage the wild-riders-behind-your-lines situation. Not a nice situation to have turn 1.

It may have been a better idea to pelt his wardancers with shooting and magic missiles, but I hoped to wipe them out and reform to face the treeman. Here came the biggest point of contention imo: the Hellshard champion challenged and subsequently got gutted. My brother then convinced me that the d6 hits should be distributed to the wardancer unit and not the dancer hero. I’m not so sure about that, but that’s how we played it.

Here’s where it all got a bit f*cky. I rolled box cars on my terror test, and as we read it, the game is basically over, cause he can charge my fleeing IG with his scouts standing behind them.

We keep playing for funsies and his Shadowdancer turns into a literal whirlwind of death, lord Hashut almighty preserve us! 13 wounds delivered

His final thoughts. It should be mentioned that my brother is a big fan of 9th age, and is quite overtly negative towards systems that he considers inferior (such as this one, as is evident by his choice of words). Can’t lie, it gets a bit grating, but what can you do.

I think I will modify my list away from the turtle bunker artillery style and possibly take some points away from the characters section.

The 10 man hobgoblin units are not viable without the overseer’s standard - they run away from a stiff breeze, it would appear.

I’d really like to try bull centaurs, so I’m getting some of those soon.

Infernal Guard with fireglaives were amazing. So difficult to shift, and packs a punch, boy I’ll tell ya - especially with daemonic vessel active.

Mantle of Stone is a really good item, but takes away from other defensive gear, so you’re still very much susceptible to poison and other attacks that ignore toughness. Iniative saves - forget about it.

I didn’t get to see neither mortar nor rocket in action. The rocket got to shoot once, and despite dual re-rolls, still missed, so… meh

A magma cannon stuck to an iron daemon seems to be a good choice for artillery, I’ll have to look into that.

Lists:

===
CD 1200 v. 2 [1200 pts]
Warhammer: The Old World, Chaos Dwarfs

++ Characters [527 pts] ++

Sorcerer-Prophet [305 pts]

• Hand weapon
• Heavy armour
• Be a Level 4 Wizard
• On foot
• Talisman of Protection
• Mantle of Stone
• Armour of Meteoric Iron
• Daemonology

Infernal Seneschal [137 pts]

• Darkforged weapon
• Heavy armour
• Naptha bombs (not pistol)
• Standard Bearer
• Mantle of Stone
• Charmed Shield

Daemonsmith Sorcerer [85 pts]

• Hand weapon
• Heavy armour
• On foot
• Dark Magic

++ Core Units [368 pts] ++

15 Infernal Guard [308 pts]

• Fireglaives
• Heavy armour
• Shield
• Deathmask [Hellshard]
• Standard bearer [Ashen Banner]
• Musician

10 Hobgoblin Cutthroats [30 pts]

• Hand weapons and shortbow

10 Hobgoblin Cutthroats [30 pts]

• Hand weapons and shortbow

++ Special Units [120 pts] ++

1 Deathshrieker Rocket Launcher [120 pts]

• Demolition Rockets
• Infernal Incendiaries
• Hand weapons
• Heavy armour

++ Rare Units [185 pts] ++

1 Dreadquake Mortar [185 pts]

• Dreadquake Mortar
• Hand weapons
• Heavy armour
• Ogre Loader

===
Snipe and dance 3 [1200 pts]
Warhammer: The Old World, Wood Elf Realms

++ Characters [336 pts] ++

Shadowdancer [165 pts]

• Spear of Loec
• Level 1 Wizard
• Lore Familiar
• An Annoyance Of Netlings
• Illusion

Waystalker [171 pts]

• Default Weapons
• Arcane Bodkins
• Bow of Loren
• A Muster Of Malevolents

++ Core Units [305 pts] ++

5 Glade Riders [105 pts]

• Hand weapon
• Cavalry Spears and Asrai Longbows
• Hagbane Tips
• Reserved Move USR

5 Glade Guard [65 pts]

• Hand weapon and Asrai Longbows
• Arcane Bodkins

9 Deepwood Scouts [135 pts]

• Hand weapon and Asrai Longbows
• Hagbane Tips

++ Special Units [314 pts] ++

7 Wardancers [118 pts]

• Hand weapon
• 6 Additional hand weapon
• 1 Throwing Spear

7 Wild Riders [196 pts]

• Hand weapon and Hunting Spear
• Light armour
• Shields

++ Rare Units [245 pts] ++

Treeman [245 pts]

• Forest Spites [A Befuddlement Of Mischiefs]

[chitzkoi]

Really helpful writeup, thank you Anders. Although I can imagine a few times and places for infantry hobgoblins, I definitely think their utility will prove limited. Elves, dwarfs, WoC - I think I will be leaving them at home.

I have not faced wood elves since I was a child but they definitely have an enviable reputation against our boys. I look forward to hearing more tales like this as games are played.

We are a system agnostic board, so if you turn back to T9A at any point, don’t hesitate to fill us in!

[Jasko]

@Vacationist

My brother then convinced me that the d6 hits should be distributed to the wardancer unit and not the dancer hero. I’m not so sure about that, but that’s how we played it.

Well, I can see now why your brother was such “successful” player I’m right there with you, in a challenge (!) that Hellshard should have hit the Shadowdancer and not the unit! It’s the same with thunderstomp and everything else, even if the opponent already died from regular attacks, in that combat round nothing can get in or out.

[Vacationist]

Hehe, yeah, if he can rule something RAW in his favor, he’ll do it

I think Hellshard can be likened to the dwarf slayers’ deathblow ability - it is struck at the same initiative as the killing blow, ergo in the challenge. I’m not so sure about stomps and such - the rules say that mounts “may” direct their attacks toward the challenger (to rake up some overkill points), but that “may” suggests to me that it may also just go ape on the rest of the unit. A clear indication of when the challenge ends would be super helpful to have in the rules.

I was also wondering whether the challenge lasts for the whole combat round, regardless of whether someone dies or not - it doesn’t seem to suggest that it does, though? We played it such that I couldn’t direct my 6 s6 fireglaive attacks onto his dancer after he’d killed my boy in challenge Good for brohan.

[Jasko]

@Vacationist

We played it such that I couldn’t direct my 6 s6 fireglaive attacks onto his dancer after he’d killed my boy in challenge

Wow, so you really got the worst of both worlds? Sheesh!

No no no, I am really sure that this is not how it’s played! Yes, RB says may, but before it clearly say that all attacks of the mount must be made within the challenge and later “[…] may be made against the rival as normal […]”. It’s either “keep beating up that corpse” or the attacks are wasted.

Because you’re right: If two characters go into a challenge, that challenge goes on for as long as one or both die, always for the whole turn. So Stomps, Slayer Deathblows, Hellshard or anything else would always go against the character, even if he is already dead.

Garrrr, that really annoys me!

If the bearer of the Hellshard loses their last Wound to an enemy attack during the Combat phase, the unit that made the attack suffers D6 Strength 5 hits, each with an AP of -1

The Wardancers were not the unit that made the attacks! That was the Shadowdancer.

[Vacationist]

Oh good point about the wording for challenges. I’ll have to get my head around that. Is there a paragraph I can find that specifies that the challenge always goes on the whole turn?

@Jasko

The Wardancers were not the unit that made the attacks! That was the Shadowdancer.

True! But my brother’s reasoning was that, since the item description says unit and not model, the hits would be given to the unit that the character was part of He didn’t want to lose his blender elf before getting to use his spear/doppelganger combo We rolled the hits onto him initially, and it killed him, but then we transferred the wounds to the unit after the fact, when I’d shown him the Hellshard description.

The battle was lost as soon as he won the roll to go first, if not earlier, so it’s not super important, but it’s nice to know these things for posterity.

[Jasko]

@Vacationist

my brother’s reasoning was that, since the item description says unit and not model,

If it had said “model” and your champion was killed by regular Wardancers and you rolled 6 wounds he would have said “well he was killed by only one model, and wardancers only have 1 wound, so the other 5 are wasted.” The RB talks about units all the time, but that term also applies to lone models and characters.

@Vacationist

He didn’t want to lose his blender elf before getting to use his spear/doppelganger combo

I can sympathize with that but, well, if he dies he dies. Then again, from your report I see that you deviated from the rules a few times for narrative purposes or to keep units in play a bit longer, and that’s of course totally fine and up to you. It just should have been an angreement between you two to keep the Shadowdancer alive so he can do his little trick, not a one-sided (mis-)interpretation of the rules.

@Vacationist

Is there a paragraph I can find that specifies that the challenge always goes on the whole turn?

No, not directly. That is only implied by the combination of the explanations.

@Vacationist

The battle was lost as soon as he won the roll to go first,

Well, yes actually Setting up units in charge distance of Wild Riders is suicide, especially if it’s not a dedicated elite melee unit.

[Jasko]

That’s right, I’m still not done with it!

Just wanted to reiterate/recap a few things for future reference.

1. We have been talking about the duration of challenges and when they end and what’s happening at which time. There is no single sentence telling us how long a challenge goes on if one character dies, but consensus has always been that no attacks can go in or out for the whole combat phase. (case and point in this instance: The Fireglaives couldn’t attack the Shadowdancer once the Champion was dead.)
2. One of the rules which may help are the ones for mounts, where it says a mound may direct it’s attacks against an already dead character. For this particular case it’s important to remember that the Hellshard is not a mount. For all intents and purposes it’s an attack made by the character. It also doesn’t say “at the end of the turn” or even “end of combat”, it just says “suffers D6 hits”, as in instantaneous.
3. OK, fine, let’s treat the Hellshard like a mount then. And now I elect to direct it’s attacks against the Shadowdancer! Either way you look at it, those hits go on the character in the challenge!

Luckily for us, the Hellshard has the exact same wording as the Slayer Deathblow rule, so if in doubt we can just ask GW what is happening with Deathblow (as they probably won’t answer a question concerning a legacy faction).

[Vacationist]

I found a rumination on the wording of the challenge rules which considers that there is nothing stating that the challenge ends when a participant dies.

The challenge continues the next round of combat, if a set of criteria are met, otherwise it ends.

That is quite a convincing argument that the challenge lasts for a round at a time.

[Mollesvinet]

Hello,

This is the wood elf player, an elf disguised as a dwarf in these forums.

I later agreed that the hellshard hits should go towards my character based on a FAQ entry about assailment spells. Assailment spells also writes that they target enemy unit, but has been specified to only affect the enemy challenger in a challenge. Remember, the character is part of the wardancer unit. He is not a unit on his own, unless he leaves the wardancer unit. This was my first game of ToW as well though, so errors will happen of course. Apologies for that.

Generally I think rules should be played as written, if they are unclear, or unintended uses can be made, then it should be corrected in the book or included in a FAQ. Not just RAW in my favour though, although in this case it did save my shadowdancer…

As mentioned I am a big fan of 9th, and one of the things I like the most is how easily the rulebook and armybooks can be updated without having to refer to a FAQ. I kinda wish that GW would only release the lovely fluff in hardback books, and then have all rules online for easy updating. They could have even done it as a subscription model, they really missed a chance there