what happens if the initiative or weapon skill value of a model drops to 0. The rule books say for strength, wounds and toughness you die, for weapon skill you got automatically hit, so the enemy does not need to roll hit dice risking to roll a natural 1. On the other hand is a model even allowed to roll for hits if it has weapon skill 0 in hope to roll a natural 6s. The rules say you roll to hit and consult the Hit chart. There are no zeros present.
And what about the initiative value does a value of 0 prohibits to fight? Rules say a model with characteristics of 0 has no ability whatsoever in what the characteristic represents. So no chance to be selected to fight or even cast assailment spells?
I ask because if we are allowed to take multiple stone mantles we can reach initiative values of 0.
For me it reads:
WS is 0 enemy auto hits, self no hit rolls allowed, but with I >0 other actions in combat are possible e.g. casting assailments.
I is 0 no participation in fighting, but with WS > 0 the enemy needs to normally roll to hit.
As I recall you can only take one magic item of each type on a model. Youâre allowed to have multiple of the same item in the same army, but it shouldnât be very easy to get a stat down to zero.
I guess a model with 0 WS would suggest it canât attack normally. Regardless, if an attacker wants to strike a 0 WS foe they would still have to roll to hit, at which point the dice take over and a natural roll of 1 is still automatically a failed hit anyway.
That is a good point, hadnât considered it! I automatically added a âto a minimum of 1â for the stone mantle but youâre right, with two stone mantles I can be 0. and I agree, a model with I0 does not attack on close combat (and therefore also cannot cast assailment spells!).
Not anymore, in TOW there are so called extremely common items (they are marked with an *). Not only can you have this item multiple times in your army, but even multiple times on the same model. And even more, you can also have another magic items from the same category on a model too! So for example: a sorcerer prophet with two stone mantles and a talisman of protection.
Somehow this is quite a mess. I donât think that with 0 initiative a model is part of the striking order. It would contradict the strike last rule as it would be a âsuper strike lastâ. For me it permits a model to be placed in striking order with the result not to be allowed to perform attacks or to even cast assailments.
The sentence âwith characteristics of 0 has no ability whatsoever in what the characteristic representsâ needs to be explained in more detail. Initiative represents the position in the striking order.
Also I see the same mess for 0 weapon skill for the proposed enemy auto hits and for the model itself that tries to attack with WS 0. So what is the order of actions during performing hits? First roll then consult the hit charts, then apply modifiers, then apply natural 1 or natural 6 ruling. Or roll and immediately apply the ruling for natural 1s and 6s, then consult hit chart and add modifiers? This is problematic as WS 0 has no entry in that chart. So is any hit roll with WS 0 an auto fail? That would be in consistence with the rule book saying that enemy will auto hit any model with WS 0?
Super unclear and I donât like this at all. Best would be a ruling that any spell or piece of equipment can not drop a modelâs WS or I below 1.
But I am still super happy to play Warhammer Fantasy again and even create a Chaos Dwarf army in the style of 4th/5th ed, cheers to that.
Hey hey. So the WS 0 thing is pretty clear cut, if I understand your thinking correctly: on page 158 under Characteristics of zero, it says that a thing with WS 0 is hit automatically and all possible attacks made by it miss automatically. So thatâs easy, unless Iâm missing something.
As for A, you canât attack if you have 0, makes sense.
S, T, and W - you are dead if you reach 0, makes sense.
At LD 0 you auto fail anything you need to roll LD for.
For I 0, you auto fail any tests, as mentioned. The big question is whether you take part in the initiative order at all, but itâs not specified either way. I would do I 0 attacks dead last, yes, after great weapons and after stomps even. Thatâs how slow he is.
No, Iâm definitely with Anima on this: If you have Initiative 0, you donât attack in close combat. Not with your weapon, and also not with assailment spells. Thereâs no reason to assume this would be any different to all the other stats. Thatâs the price you pay for +2/+3 Toughness.
Itâs easy to remember: Strikes Last is at Initiative 1. Only one thing comes after striking last: not striking at all.
WS0 is clearly mentioned in the rules, though, so thatâs def someting which is possible.
But it goes even further: Can a stat be negative? Meaning can a Sorcerer-Prophet with Initiave 2 take three stone mantles and drop to Initiative -1? Iâd say thereâs even an argument to be made that itâs not possible, he does not have any initiative left to âpayâ for the effect.
Characteristics are between 0 and 10 in some situations higher than 10, but never below 0. This explained and ruled along the description of the âCharacteristics Profileâ. But what 0 for each characteristics means is not fully explained for the phases, the sub phases and steps to proceed.
That would mean you cannot take a stone mantle if youâre already on initiative 0. I think that checks out.
IMO itâs clear for all stats:
M0: you cannot move
WS0: you cannot attack and are hit automatically
BS0: you cannot shoot
S0: youâre dead
T0: youâre dead
W0: youâre dead
I0: you cannot attack
A0: you cannot attack
LD0: you fail any LD test
WS0: you cannot attack and are hit automatically - with I > 0 still selected to fight (participate in striking order) to perform other actions (e.g. assailments)
I0: cannot fight (no participation in striking order) - with WS > 0 enemy needs to roll to hit
Both are 0 (WS, I), please do not bring this model near any enemy
I honestly think this is a rash ruling. It isnât stated anywhere that this is the case. Weâre kind of extrapolating on the rules for having WS 0, which is a different thing altogether.
Iâd have a look at this blurb:
Highest to lowest. 0 is by all accounts lowest, but most importantly, it says âuntil everyone has foughtâ. This implies to me that a 0 initiative model would still get to fight, albeit after all the initiative 1 stuff like stomps and non-charging great weapons etc.
A spell like gathering darkness would via this ruling effectively completely incapacitate an entire unit of dwarf or similar I 2 units. Thatâd be wack. EDIT: Oups, it says to a minimum of 1. Scratch that, then.
Oh, and I think you should be able to take three stone mantles. You have -3 initiative, so if you charge 3"+ you end up at a mighty 2 initiative
Yeah I have considered it, but I am still wondering about the sentence âwith characteristics of 0 has no ability whatsoever in what the characteristic representsâ in the ruling that describes characteristics of 0. And for me the ability to be part in the striking order is defined by the initiative characteristics. Thatâs why I am guessing how to handle I 0 but also WS 0.
and the rule describing what zero characteristic means handles each characteristic quite differently. If one wants to exaggerate it, 0 means you cannot be part of this order, as initiative represents/defines/dictates the order or the position in this order. So no ability whatsoever to be placed in this order. Again just guessing and I donât like the idea that you have to strike last after all strike last ruled modelsâŚ
I think youâre extrapolating the wording to a degree where youâre making up a rule that doesnât exist.
Striking after I 1 attacks would indeed signify to me an inability to react to danger
For my part, I need to see it written that initiative 0 takes you out of the combat entirely, period. Otherwise Iâll refer to the RAW and treat the combatant as what he is: a model with I 0, along with the interactions that entails.
I think you inadvertently argue against yourself there. If Initiative 0 would indeed still be part of the initiative order, why should the spell stop at Initiative 1? As you rightly pointed out, thereâs still a potential +3 charge bonus after all. I would again refer you to the Strikes Last (sic!) special rule. Thatâs not I0, thatâs I1. The slowest attack is at I1, thereâs nothing coming after that.
If you go by RAW, then Anima already has the RAW for you: If a model has a characteristic of â0â, it has no ability whatsoever in what the characteristic represents. If Initiative order is called upon, a model with I0 simply does not take part. Like a piece of terrain.
I think there are a couple of questions which could be directed to oldworldFAQ@gwplc.com
Can Initiative, for any reason, be decreased to 0 or even below?
What happens if a model has Initiative 0? Does it strike after Initiative 1 or not all at?
Could a model with Initiative 0 still get a charge bonus to initiative?
If a magic item decreases a stat by 1, can this item be equipped if the stat is already 1? Can a character equip such an item and thereby voluntarily decrease his own stat down to 0 or below?
Personally my take on these would be
Characteristics cannot be nagative, they stop at zero
A model with I0 does not strike at all
No, a characteristic of 0 cannot be modified.
A model can voluntarily decrease his stat to 0 but not below.
I purposely framed (4) this cryptic as I donât know how serious GW will take the âNO SUPPORT FOR LEGACY FACTIONSâ thing, so mentioning Stone Mantle may be an auto-exclude. At least (1) and (2) should be of general interest though and might be worthwhile asking. At least I will send these questions.
Since it isnât explicitly specified I would be more inclined to side with the Init O strikes dead last argument. The only written argument against it is.
with characteristics of 0 has no ability whatsoever in what the characteristic representsâ
Whilst it then specifies other characteristics and the effect of 0 from those attributes it does not mention Initiative
This then states that all models fight in descending I order, which I feel is more concrete RAW.
Clearly an FAQ would be most helpful though. It would not surprise me in the FAQ if they stated that their intention was I0 donât get to fight
