BilboBaggins:
I’ve found an alternate rulebook online recently for the Chaos Dwarfs. I’m putting links up to see what everyone here thinks of them.
Chaos Dwarf Alternate Sourcebook
There are two versions of this one floating around, this in the newer of the versions I have found.
Hobgoblyn:
furrie:
one thing hobgoblyn, chaos sorcerers have armour, so there are spellcasters in the game with armour
Hobgoblyn:
Oh, okay. Is that new?
High Elves Spellcaster doesn’t have armor nor does Empire nor does Skaven nor Orc nor Goblin nor Bretonian nor Dark Elves nor Lizardmen nor… well, you get the idea. Don’t have a Warriors of Chaos book handy, so I guess that’s the one I missed. I was under the impression there was a general rule that spellcasters had to be soft. because giving them a save would make them exponentially better.
Kera foehunter:
i think there a nice set of rules
BilboBaggins:
1) Stone armor is too strong (should only be a 4+ base save, 3+ when combined with a shield)1. Sometimes you need strong armor (Skaven have Jazells)
2) Armor Slave rules are wonky, I think it would be best to do away with the rules entirely since rules already cover other models in the unit protecting the character
3) There should be a point limit on the automation upgrades (just like the rules for magic banners)
4) I don't really see a need for both Priests and Sorcerers, furthermore the Priest's powers shouldn't be automatic successes (they should have to roll using power dice just like mages)
5) While the whole 'turn to stone' is nice in fluff, having models with 0-2 movement and then a must-have item in order to counter it is making things unnecessarily complicated. Furthermore, no other spellcasters in the game (to my knowledge) get armor saves and so this really seems to add up to giving the spellcaster a leg up over all other spellcasters.
I could continue, but otherwise the thing that strikes me is that there are just WAY too many options and choices available compared to other armies. I get the feeling that the creator of this just threw in every idea anyone has ever come up with Chaos Dwarfs to create a big mess.
But... I do like the artwork and layout!
Hobgoblyn
superfella:
i think that list is awesome!
I think I will try it out at the weekend using some regular dwarfs as proxies!
dedwrekka:
Which are really weak except from long range. The same can be said of Stormvermin, who are just very slightly buffed clanrats with heavier armor.1) Stone armor is too strong (should only be a 4+ base save, 3+ when combined with a shield)1. Sometimes you need strong armor (Skaven have Jazells)
2) Armor Slave rules are wonky, I think it would be best to do away with the rules entirely since rules already cover other models in the unit protecting the character
3) There should be a point limit on the automation upgrades (just like the rules for magic banners)
4) I don't really see a need for both Priests and Sorcerers, furthermore the Priest's powers shouldn't be automatic successes (they should have to roll using power dice just like mages)
5) While the whole 'turn to stone' is nice in fluff, having models with 0-2 movement and then a must-have item in order to counter it is making things unnecessarily complicated. Furthermore, no other spellcasters in the game (to my knowledge) get armor saves and so this really seems to add up to giving the spellcaster a leg up over all other spellcasters.
I could continue, but otherwise the thing that strikes me is that there are just WAY too many options and choices available compared to other armies. I get the feeling that the creator of this just threw in every idea anyone has ever come up with Chaos Dwarfs to create a big mess.
But... I do like the artwork and layout!
Hobgoblyn
BilboBaggins
2. I was looking for Slave Units like Skaven so we another choice than to throw HobGobs to be killed.For all intents and purposes the Hobgoblin entry is about the same as the Skaven Slave entry. With the exception of being able to get wolves.
3. Yes, I can see that.I don't really see why they should be better in combat than any other wizard. We don't know enough about how Chaos Dwarf sorcerers operate to say that they should be great. Besides, I see it as a little hard to fight when your limbs and joints are turning to stone.
4. Think Empire who has Priests and Wizards. Not sure the Chaos Dwarfs should have both.
5. The turn to stone has been part of the fluff for years. Astrogath made steam powered limbs to counteract that. I like that it is included as an upgrade for all Chaos Dwarf Sorcerers. The Sorcerers should really be better in combat than they are in the ravening hoards list.
I haven't fully read this book (I have to print it out soon) but I did notice Lords not riding Taurus but a mechanical mount.These are the guys who almost killed themselves off with a giant rocket.
I disagree about the Hell Cannon being included. I personally feel that the Chaos Dwarfs made it for Archeon to use but wouldn't use it themselves because it's too hard to control. They are DWARFS and like reliable equipment.
Hobgoblyn:
I just noticed something else screwy with this list.
Blunderbusses with shields - 10 men
T4 Save 4+ Ld
Range 16" (effectively 19") 20x S4 Armor Piercing round every round at BS4 with no penalties for movement or for long-range shooting.
Cost? 120pts.
The fact that no one else looked at this list and said that it is a 3-CHEESE mix of mozeralla CHEESE, american CHEESE and cheddar CHEESE being served on a CHEESE pizza at chucky CHEESE with a side order of CHEESE bread while a man with a CHEESEy accent and CHEESEy smile instructs ‘say CHEESE’ to a family who owns a CHEESE factory in CHEESEkapi county…
Makes me think they’ve lost absolutely all perspective on the game.
7 guaranteed wounds against any T4 unit or 9 guaranteed wounds against any T3 unit and would get 40-60 total shots at any incoming cavalry unit and 80-100 shots at any incoming infantry unit… and cannot be shot up or scared because of ridiculously high defense stats… for the price of 40 goblins armed with just hand weapons? 30 light armored himans humans with just hand weapons? 20 standard orcs with just hand weapons?
12-points is equal to BS4 Ld8 T3 light armored high elf longbow men whose shots aren’t much further than 19" are only S3 and have penalties for long range and movement.
snowblizz:
Oh, okay. Is that new?No. They've had that since at least 4th edition I'd say. Chaos wizards aren't pansies wearing robes.
High Elves Spellcaster doesn't have armor nor does Empire nor does Skaven nor Orc nor Goblin nor Bretonian nor Dark Elves nor Lizardmen nor... well, you get the idea. Don't have a Warriors of Chaos book handy, so I guess that's the one I missed. I was under the impression there was a general rule that spellcasters had to be soft. because giving them a save would make them exponentially better.
Hobgoblyn
Thommy H:
There was a rule against it until 7th Edition. Now the rule is “you can’t have a certain type of magic item unless you have access to the mundane type”. Since the vast majority of wizards don’t have access to armour, they also can’t get magic armour.
So no, there is no strict rule about it, but “wizards can’t wear armour” is still generally true enough that it’s worth pointing out when there are wizards in an army list that can.
Grimstonefire:
Nice to see you've taken so much interest in my list. It would be rude of me not to reply after all the kind things you've said, especially as you knew I was going to reply eventually. ;)
The fact that no one else looked at this list and said that it is a 3-CHEESE mix of mozeralla CHEESE, american CHEESE and cheddar CHEESE being served on a CHEESE pizza at chucky CHEESE with a side order of CHEESE bread while a man with a CHEESEy accent and CHEESEy smile instructs 'say CHEESE' to a family who owns a CHEESE factory in CHEESEkapi county...
Hobgoblyn
cornixt:
Hobgoblyn: Well, the ones in the list aren’t BS4 for a start. Longbows are 30" range, which is quite a bit more than 19" (where did you get that from? Looks like 16 in the list, so almost double). You seem to be weirdly combining things so what you are saying doesn’t make sense. Compare them to repeater xbows for more similarity than HE bowmen. Not really a cheesefest, just undercosted a little.
Grim: Sounds a bit strong for the points cost. 13-14pts seems much nearer the mark
Hobgoblyn:
Okay, you need convincing. Fair enough. Let's take the Elven Archers who are exactly the same price as you've listed for the Chaos Dwarf Blunderbusses there.Nice to see you've taken so much interest in my list. It would be rude of me not to reply after all the kind things you've said, especially as you knew I was going to reply eventually. ;)
The fact that no one else looked at this list and said that it is a 3-CHEESE mix of mozeralla CHEESE, american CHEESE and cheddar CHEESE being served on a CHEESE pizza at chucky CHEESE with a side order of CHEESE bread while a man with a CHEESEy accent and CHEESEy smile instructs 'say CHEESE' to a family who owns a CHEESE factory in CHEESEkapi county...
Hobgoblyn
Once I get more feedback I will answer all your questions. It's quite useful to see what people think when they just discuss it amongst themselves (you get to see how people interpret things without them being explained). Generally when I've put up my list on other forums when I start answering questions nobody replies any more.
Your understanding of the blunderbusses is just plain wrong, so I will answer that one.
40-60 against cavalry? 80-100 against infantry? I am really interested to know how you worked that one out!
I already planned to change it to move or fire, but assuming you've read the second version of my list the long range modifier is the only one they are exempt from. If you haven't read that version I suggest you do as it's much better IMO.
A Dwarf handgun is 24" range, S4 with AP and +1 to hit.
Mine is 16" range, S4 with AP and x2 multiple shot.
I'd need to do some number crunching, but it seems to me if you want to deploy 10 models wide you'll lose a turn to reform anyway unless you have a massive unit. So the number of shots overall works out fairly similar.
Grimstonefire
Grimstonefire:
Fair enough points, but you do know that aside from the differences in the weapon mentionned a dwarf thunderer is exactly the same as my version but 12pts? If you want to say a dwarf thunderer is underpriced compared to an elf is ok, but you can’t say my blunderbussers are really unbalanced because they’re not really that different to thunderers.
A 16" range is still a 16" range regardless of how close you move. I know what you’re saying, but the range does not change 
I pointed out the reforming thing as I can’t see where you’re getting 20 shots from? You have to deploy 10 models wide to do that, so if they get charged they will be wiped out.
If you ranked them up 5X2 you’d only be getting 10 shots per turn. Which works out as 30 shots, 10 less than the elves using your example.
Bear in mind as well that being a multiple shot weapon they are -1 to hit anyway. A fair trade off IMO compared to the dwarf handgun. Sure you get an additional shot, but -1 to hit instead of +1…
I already decided to change it to move or shoot.
Hobgoblyn:
If a model armed exclusively with a ranged weapon isn’t screwed when its gets charged, there is something quite wrong. Anyone who was thinking things through would always deploy them in the 10x1 formation unless on a hill just like ALL other ranged units in the game.
What do you think is going to be able to charge you and live through that kind of hail of gunfire? Even a 9-move calvary unit would likely get shot for 2 turns worth, 40 shots, if it tried to come at this unit. Unless the player was somehow very careful about movement and then it’d only get 1 rounds worth (but 20 shots is still nothing to dismiss!)
Now, maybe you have a different book on hand than me, but I am looking at Dwarf Thunderers… they cost 14 points each, wear light armor, not 12 points with heavy armor.
And a range of 8 more means probably 1 more turn of shooting or 3-4 total rounds from each model while the blunderbusses you propose are getting 2x 2-3, in other words 4-6 total shots from each model.
So the blunderbusses you have here are outputting more rounds of fire while wearing better armor and are 2 points less. Where exactly do you see them as being equal to the Thunderers?
Grimstonefire:
Ok, my mistake ;) 14 points including light armour.
Dark Elves have repeater crossbows. Does this in principle make them unbalanced because of the number of shots they can make? I know they are S3, do they get AP now?
I personally never deploy wider than 8 minis on larger units (2 ranks), which usually means my thunderers survive at least one combat. If I ran units of 10… I guess I might be tempted to do 10 x 1 depending on deployment/ terrain etc. Where do you draw the line on how many models wide to deploy? At what point is it more sensible to do them in two ranks? An interesting point that actually.
I must be missing something on how you are working that out. Sorry to do some number crunching, but perhaps you can explain this to me:
Ok. We have 10 thunderers arranged 10 x 1:
Enemy deploys a few inches back from the min deployment, say 28"
28" range = 0 shots
20" range = 10 shots
12" range = 10 shots
4" range = 10 shots
= 30
10 blunderbussers deployed 10 x 1
28" range = 0 shots
20" range = 0 shots
12" range = 20 shots
4" range = 20 shots
= 40
So +1 shot per model overall.
At 30" with a crossbow/ longbow
30" range = 10 shots
22" range = 10 shots
14" range = 10 shots
6" range = 10 shots
S&S = 10 shots
= 50
At 30" with a BB
30" range = 0 shots
22" range = 0 shots
14" range = 20 shots
6" range = 20 shots
S&S = 20 shots
= 60
So again +1 shot per model overall, this time compared to crossbow/ longbow a common weapon.
If it came to S&S they would be -2 to hit. Which on BS3 is hitting on a 6… Compared to quarellers who would be hitting on a 4+. Being -1 to hit if you opt to shoot twice is not that unbalanced IMO, especially as if they only shot the once they would still be -1 to hit compared to dwarf equivalent (at close range).
I doubt there’s much you could say that could convince me x2 multiple shots is inherantly unbalanced.
The only possible consideration is that small units of CD shooting at unengaged units wondering up and down the line (within 16") would be quite deadly indead if the enemy didn’t charge them. But this is the same issue for repeater crossbows, so I assume it must be balanced in principle.
If I gave them light armour instead of heavy, and made them 14 pts/ model? Anyone have the Dark Elves book to hand so I can see how much their repeater crossbows are? (Difference between spear elf and Repeater ones if you take off all other equipment).
Another idea is to drop AP?
I basically want to keep them as they are, but if dropping to light armour and losing AP keeps them around 14 pts/ model I’d be happy to do that. Would that work do you think?
Basic model should come out at 7 points
light armour +1
A dwarf handgun is therefore 6 pts/ model. I think a repeater crossbow is the same points as a regular one?
So bearing in mind the +1 to hit the thunderers have all the time, and the BB are -1 to hit all the time (when shooting multiple times).
Blunderbuss +6 pts/ model
=14 points/ model
I could make it 16 pts/ model for balancing sake and keep AP?
That would mean you could get 13 elves for 10 BB. Which would even up their shots a little. Or 16 Repeater crossbow DE (x 2 multiple shooting at 24"!?!?).
On a separate note what do you think of the rules/ points for my special units?
snowblizz:
DE Crossbows 10, warriors 6 points.
I’d keep the heavy armour on BBs for 15 points. Provided they don’t get shields.
Grimstonefire:
The warriors, is that just with a hand weapon, no shield or spear?
If it is that’s 4pts for a repeater crossbow, which I believe is S3 AP 24". IMO that is too cheap, but I guess elves are not as tough as chaos dwarfs.
Having re-read the rules on Multiple shot weapons, and that they are -1 to hit all the time if you opt to shoot multiple times, I think overall that 15pts/ model with light armour and no option for shields would be reasonable?