CheTralfara:
The Realms of Chaos books clear up the whole lesser known chaos gods issue… Basically there are an infinite amount of Chaos Gods of varying power… the 4 most well known powers are likely the most popular, but also could be argued started there as examples of pre-made chaos gods… much like special characters started as pre-made characters… while you had the option to make your own characters.
In the original Realms of Chaos books they actually detailed how to create your own Chaos God and even provided an example of a Goat-head (very baphomet) chaos god that was supposedly inspired by Skaven (I guess the Horned Rat wasn’t around yet.). … There is no subservience of the “lesser” (lesser known) gods to any of the known gods. They are entities in their own right.
As far as Chaos Dwarfs not expanding their empire… i’m not sure what you mean… I never thought they weren’t out fighting wars all over the warhammer globe… I always assumed they were! I always thought that was the whole reason we are playing them! Because every battle we play with them (that takes place outside of the darklands) is what you could consider to be an offensive attack in attempt to expand or exact revenge! That’s how I see it anyway…
As far as lesser god Daemons… the goat-headed god that was created as an example in the ROC books had daemons and also had a section in the book of how to create your own daemons for your chaos god… Then there are also Independant (non-aligned) daemons (there’s a whole section on them in one of the Liber Chaoticas… probably ‘Undivided’)… The Horned Rat has a known Greater Daemon called the “Vermin Lord” (was around during Herohammer days) who is supposed to make a comeback in 7th edition very soon…
Hashut however has no known daemons… however I like to think he would have armies of part-Bull part-Machine daemon troops that can be summoned by the Chaos Dwarf sorcerers to do Hashuts bidding… One of the armies I plan on creating is a Daemons of Hashut army using Chaos Daemons army book rules…
I believe the Chaos Dwarf daemon-binding was created with the novel Grudge Bearer, and I’m not sure if they mention what god’s daemons are used in the process… however I think it was general consensus amongst CD players that Chaos Dwarfs use daemons of all gods for different purposes. This could be part of the reason they needed a Bloodthirster head… perhaps to bind it to a warmachine… Perhaps they knew his real name also! Perhaps they know Hashette’s real name too!
BTW where can i read that story about the bloodthirster head trade?
.nick
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Perturabo:
I agree Hashut is likely a god in his own right and, just to take the thread even further off topic, I don’t think there’s enough ‘lesser gods’ around these days. I always liked the independant god concept, like Hashut and the horned rat. I feel it adds depth to the whole Chaos thing to have other races gods manifesting their influence in a direct way.
Um, anyway, go expansionism! Take some slaves! Yeah.
Kera foehunter:
well it great to have godsfor your army !!but if they don’t cast down total chaos and destroy the other groups army . You have just as much luck throwing empty rum bottle at the enemy ??
Groznit Goregut:
Man, I wish I had copies of those older source books. It’s too bad we can’t trade .pdf’s around of OOP material (like the old CD books).
Thommy H:
You can find White Dwarf presents: Chaos Dwarfs on ebay pretty regularly and, unlike some of the models, it’s often for a fairly reasonable price.
Tarrakk Blackhand:
I thought Hashut was a god upon himself, not some lesser god of Chaos. In fact, the old Chaos Dwarfs weren’t part of the Chaos realm (Tzneech, Khorn, etc.) They just chose the “Chaos” moniker to differentiate themselves from the good Dwarfs.
cornixt:
The 2nd/3rd ed CDs were part of Chaos, there were rules for Chaos creatures of all kinds. Chaos Dwarfs were more closely linked with Khorne than the other gods, presumably the dwarven traits of poor magic and love of technology made it make most sense. Only in 4th edition did they become more “Dwarfs affect by Chaos” than “Dwarfs who follow Chaos” and get Hashut as their god.
I wonder if Hashut does in fact have his own daemons and they are the ones bound into the war machines. Bloodthirster axes each contain a bound Bloodthirster inside them.
NB. It is a Bloodletter’s head, not a Bloodthirster’s.
CheTralfara:
Still wondering where the BL head story is though…
I think you’re misunderstanding what I meant by “lesser” god… “lesser” god just means “lesser known” about… not lesser in power or significance. The ROC books basically implied that the 4 chaos powers were there as a guide… as pre-examples… but there are an infinite ammount of chaos god powers… not 4 kings of chaos with lower gods under them… Remember there was also the anti-chaos chaos god Malal… although being officially off-limits (due to being copyright restricted) he has been mentioned many times on the sly within both warhammer rules/fluff AND warhammer 40k, and was a direct inspiration behind the daemon “Be’lakor”
Hashut IS a god in his own right and no less powerful than the other chaos gods… although I like to think that a Chaos God is as powerful as the amount of souls worshipping & sacrificed to him. Afterall daemons are souls that were surrendered to a Chaos Gods will… it is not unlikely to think Hashut would have the souls of Choas Dwarf ritualistic sacrifices performed at the temple of hashut, that he could turn to daemonic minions… As for the bound daemon engines though, I would think it’s more likely they are using ANY daemon… as bound daemon-hood is more like servitude than service… and they escape at the first chance.
As for Chaos Dwarfs in 2nd/3rd, Cornixt is absolutely right. Chaos Dwarfs were aligned to the Chaos God KHORNE in the Realms of Chaos books (which is when all chaos was created). They were specifically only available to a Khorne warband (most armies were small warbands in that edition).
Back then, there was no Chaos Undivided… just dueling chaos gods, ever competing, waxing and waning in dominance…
.nick
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Tarrakk Blackhand:
I don’t think we can go off the fluff from 2nd/3rd edition with our current CD’s. Since all things change with each book that comes out, I think we’re stuck with the fluff from 5th ed.
Groznit Goregut:
Still wondering where the BL head story is though...
CheTralfara
I think it's in the timeline in the new Warriors of Chaos book. It should be mentioned on the wiki, if you wanted to go look. I believe it's only one sentence that mentions it.
Thommy H:
Not the timeline: it’s in the same box-out as the stuff about Chaos Dwarfs making Chaos Armour. It says they trade with the Chaos Warriors for gold and slaves (I think) as well as more “esoteric treasures”. The Bloodletter’s head (pickled) along with a sack of sorcerer’s bones was traded for nothing less than the Crimson Armour of Dargan itself.
Tarrakk Blackhand:
Thommy ~ is that in the Ogre Kingdoms or WoC book?
Kera foehunter:
yea where can we find this stuff
Thommy H:
It’s in the Warriors of Chaos book.
CheTralfara:
I don't think we can go off the fluff from 2nd/3rd edition with our current CD's. Since all things change with each book that comes out, I think we're stuck with the fluff from 5th ed.
This is correct, but only to a point. The Realms Of Chaos books are what birthed all fluff on chaos, and chaos in warhammer in general. They are the basis for everything Chaos that has followed. It contains everything from Shaggoths, Slaangors, to Chaos Dwarfs. The fluff in it for Chaos Dwarfs may have changed dramatically, but the rest has remained relatively the same. In fact, the only major changes in fluff are Chaos Dwarfs and Khornes love for technology (as Khorne cares not how the blood flows, but just that it flows... but then why does he hate magic? It too, makes blood flow.. It's a shame, Khorne could have an awesome lore, or awesome techno weaponry for warhammer fantasy).
Despite those changes, the rest of the fluff in the book has either never changed, or never been covered again. This is the case for chaos "lesser gods"... After Realms of Chaos books, lesser gods were only mentioned when....
- talking about the Horned Rat
- talking about Hashut
Considering there has never been an updated explanation of the Chaos God pantheon, and since the lesser gods still exist in warhammer today (the 7th edition rulebook even calls Skaven "Chaos Ratmen", I can't believe people try to still say they aren't a chaos army! They are as independent as us CDs.)... I would say the fluff regarding lesser gods is exactly as is, in today's warhammer.... until specified otherwise.
BUT those books did also explain that the warhammer planet was a lost planet within the 40k universe, so deeply covered by warp storms that it was isolated from 40k civilization. Some people thought that made their warhammer battles less significant and universe shifting, so GW has mostly shifted away from that idea and won't confirm or deny whether or not it is still true... (However you will still find hidden references here and there... Some people think Sigmar was a lost primarch...). Perhaps WFB is actually in the FUTURE of 40k and that is way a starfaring race that could traverse the warp, would have god-like powers that could create races (I'm thinking that could be the future of the Eldar).
How satisfying would that be if WFB was actually the FUTURE, and 40k was the PAST!It's hard to know for sure what is true and isn't true when it comes to the fantasy of warhammer fantasy... not only do they give us gamers a lot of creative freedom (on purpose, and appreciated!), but they've created a universe so dramatically expansive that it would be impossible to cover every aspect and angle... that's for us to fill in i guess!
.nick
Tarrakk Blackhand:
Interesting stuff Che. I like to think of Fantasy as 40K’s past. I thought that’s how GW had it set up. But to hear that Fantasy is another isolated world in 40k sucks. I wonder how they view LOTR?
Thommy H:
How satisfying would that be if WFB was actually the FUTURE, and 40k was the PAST!
The past of what? 40K is explicitly set in the future of our world. If there is a connection, it revolves around the Old Ones, who exist in both settings - the Old Ones are responsible both for everything that happens in Warhammer
and everything that happens in 40K (they're fulfil the same 'precursor race' role in both settings).
Tarrakk Blackhand:
They’d be more of a “Precursor” in 40k as it’s suppose to be 40 000 years in the future of Fantasy. “In the future, there is only war!”.
Thommy H:
No it isn’t - it’s 40,000 years in the future of the present day. Terra is Earth, not the Warhammer world.
CheTralfara:
Why exactly would the Warhammer World being a lost isolated planet in the Warhammer 40k universe be such a bad thing?? I think it’s fun to link the two games… That’s how they started even.
It makes sense to me that if Chaos Gods have access to technology in the 40k universe, they should have access to it in the Warhammer world as well… I always thought the Chaos Gods must be pretty good at crafting metals, since they do the most intricate armour in the whole fantasy setting… That’s why I think Khorne should have some access to 40k weaponry… like Powerfists… but that’s just my opinion.
I don’t think WFB being a part of 40k is a bad thing that makes it less significant at all… I don’t even play 40k but I don’t think it makes our battles on Warhammer World any less significant. 40k battles aren’t really supposed to effect things on much of a universal scale anyway… Warhammer battles are still significant as they are fought on the planet most entrenched/threatened by Chaos. It even has it’s own unique racial entities… Lizardmen, Skaven, and Beastmen are no where in 40k…
.nick