[Archive] Do Chaos Dwarfs consider themselves "Chaos"?

Archive [Archive] Chaos Dwarf Discussion
41

Willmark:

Tommy you bring up some good points. Thinking back to basic D&D the alignments were good, neutral and chaos with chaos being equal to evil. GW has rarely made a distinction in such a way (really only in warhammer roleplay). I too see chaos dwsrfs as orderly, following the letter of the law(their own) and being evil to boot.

42

Thommy H:

Tommy you bring up some good points. Thinking back to basic D&D the alignments were good, neutral and chaos with chaos being equal to evil. GW has rarely made a distinction in such a way (really only in warhammer roleplay). I too see chaos dwsrfs as orderly, following the letter of the law(their own) and being evil to boot.

Willmark
Of course, the AD&D (and therefore the current version of D&D) alignments are more complex. You have the Good-Neutral-Evil axis (which represents pure selfishness and capacity for destructive actions) and the Lawful-Neutral-Chaotic axis (which represents response to authority and society).

So, for example, an orc might be chaotic evil (no real concept of society, simply destroys for fun), a dark elf would be neutral evil (just evil for the sake of being evil, largely) and a chaos dwarf is lawful evil (total bastards, but within a strict hierarchy which makes them unswervingly loyal to their masters - Dawi'Zharr don't backstab their superiors).

But, as I've said, the alignment system from D&D doesn't really fit with Warhammer anyway. A mortal follower of Chaos would be chaotic evil, but a daemon (who cannot escape its place in the heirachy of its kind) would be lawful evil - even though both are followers of "Chaos". Plus there really isn't a lot of 'good' in the world - the equivalent of the Paladian character class (which is always Lawful Good) are monstrous oppressors of the peasant class of their own nation, after all.
43

torn:

the chaotic wording from D&D refers to the characters personality, if they are chaotic they are unruly, murderous etc

it has absolutely nothing to do with the use of chaos in warhammer, which is as a noun, and has nothing to do with the personalities or traits of their followers. in fact chaos cultists and warriors are very orderly in what they do.

44

Tallhat:

the chaotic wording from D&D refers to the characters personality, if they are chaotic they are unruly, murderous etc

it has absolutely nothing to do with the use of chaos in warhammer, which is as a noun, and has nothing to do with the personalities or traits of their followers. in fact chaos cultists and warriors are very orderly in what they do.

torn
...or not. All depends on which God they worship Im guessing. But I agree that D&D alignments wont really work here. They are, as stated very different from "true" Chaos.

- Tallhat
45

Thommy H:

it has absolutely nothing to do with the use of chaos in warhammer, which is as a noun, and has nothing to do with the personalities or traits of their followers.
I believe that's exactly what I said.
46

Willmark:

the chaotic wording from D&D refers to the characters personality, if they are chaotic they are unruly, murderous etc

it has absolutely nothing to do with the use of chaos in warhammer, which is as a noun, and has nothing to do with the personalities or traits of their followers. in fact chaos cultists and warriors are very orderly in what they do.

torn
Ummm well aware of that; been playing it since October of 1982. I'm not talking about 3rd edition D&D right now I'm talking about original D&D from the 70's /early 80's which was much more abstract in the ideas of ethos. Gary was starting from scratch. Hence his overly simplistic Good equating to Law; Chaos=evil.

Skip to Warhammer. Bryan Ansell who founded GW in essence was a huge fan of Moorcock and his writing. A good deal of imagery and game rules were of the whole Law vs. Chaos motif early on. As time went by these were dropped from the game. Warhammer fantasy role-play had gods of Law in the rules. Ultimately even Warhammer admits in the 1st edition fantasy role-play that is one of the possibilities, out of the multitude of possibilities of chaos is law.

Simply put I agree chaos is a noun as you are saying... simply put chaos can be used for any number of monikers, and in a way denoting some sort of evil. At least this is how I see it, YMMV.
Of course, the AD&D (and therefore the current version of D&D) alignments are more complex. You have the Good-Neutral-Evil axis (which represents pure selfishness and capacity for destructive actions) and the Lawful-Neutral-Chaotic axis (which represents response to authority and society).

So, for example, an orc might be chaotic evil (no real concept of society, simply destroys for fun), a dark elf would be neutral evil (just evil for the sake of being evil, largely) and a chaos dwarf is lawful evil (total bastards, but within a strict hierarchy which makes them unswervingly loyal to their masters - Dawi'Zharr don't backstab their superiors).

But, as I've said, the alignment system from D&D doesn't really fit with Warhammer anyway. A mortal follower of Chaos would be chaotic evil, but a daemon (who cannot escape its place in the heirachy of its kind) would be lawful evil - even though both are followers of "Chaos". Plus there really isn't a lot of 'good' in the world - the equivalent of the Paladian character class (which is always Lawful Good) are monstrous oppressors of the peasant class of their own nation, after all.

Thommy H
Which I am in agreement with. The warhammer world doesn't neatly fit into such rigid mores as does (most) D&D worlds whatever the flavor. Hell, I'd offer up that it could be conceivably be argued that the World of Warhammer is predominately shades of gray, sort of like a bell curve with law/chaos, evil/good on the ends. Again YMMV.
47

torn:

the great thing about warhammer and all of GW’s universes, is that there are no good or evil, even though it seems lately it has been written that humans are good and the forces of chaos are evil, it does give both sides point of view.

its easier to see in the case of the horus heresy, where both sides seem to be acting under the cause of the good of mankind.

48

wallacer:

there are no good or evil

torn
Dark Elves are probably the only race in Warhammer that can really be considered evil, and possibly not even then.
I've certainly never thought of Chaos as being evil, it's just a different way of survival (and if a champion manages to actually achieve the immortality of Demonhood, arguably a better way).
49

Thommy H:

Dark Elves are probably the only race in Warhammer that can really be considered evil
You don't think Chaos Dwarfs or Skaven are evil? Both have slavery as the basis of their entire society.
50

wallacer:

You don't think Chaos Dwarfs or Skaven are evil? Both have slavery as the basis of their entire society.

Thommy H
At the risk of starting a flame war, I don't consider slavery evil. Numerous societies throughout history have practised it, and while it may be morally indefensible through modern eyes, that doesn't necessarily make the societies that practised it "evil".
Callous and indifferent, perhaps, but not evil.

Although, again, I guess that just really boils down to a battle of semantics over what the word evil means.
51

Thommy H:

I don't consider slavery evil
that doesn't necessarily make the societies that practised it "evil".
Those are two different points. The second is worth debating, the first isn't.

If you believe anyone can ever justify forcing another person (and their children, of course - in most historic systems of slavery, the children of slaves is a slave too) to labour against their will for the benefit of their "owners"...well...I think you should reconsider how you define your moral code.
52

wallacer:

I will define my moral code as I see fit.

My point was that it is very difficult to judge the past through modern eyes, as moral values are things that change over time.

There are many things which were considered moral in the past which are not now, and conversely many things that are considered immoral now that were not in the past.

Slavery is one example of that.

At any rate since Chaotic and evil aren’t really the same thing it kind of feels like debating what is or is not evil is actually taking the thread off topic.

53

Thommy H:

But we’re not talking about the past. We’re talking about slavery in general, and where it stands in relation to our understanding of morality. It may have been acceptable in the past, and you’re correct in that is isn’t always easy to judge history through modern eyes, but slavery is what it is and I think you’d have to work very hard indeed to make anyone capable of rational thought in today’s day and age think it’s anything but utterly and unequivocally reprehensible.

54

wallacer:

I think we’re kind of hijacking the thread a bit :wink:

If you want to continue talking about it you should probably PM me.

Either that or start a separate thread (and then you and I can take bets on how long it will be until it gets locked).

55

Thommy H:

No, I really have no desire to discuss this issue, since I’m of the opinion that there’s nothing whatsoever to debate. Slavery is evil. Anyone who disagrees is insane or stupid. Pick whichever one you prefer.

56

wallacer:

No, I really have no desire to discuss this issue, since I'm of the opinion that there's nothing whatsoever to debate.

Thommy H
Fine then, we'll let the matter drop.
It's been a pleasure.
57

Hammerhand:

No, I really have no desire to discuss this issue, since I'm of the opinion that there's nothing whatsoever to debate. Slavery is evil. Anyone who disagrees is insane or stupid. Pick whichever one you prefer.

Thommy H
No one, (not even wallacer) is trying to justify slavery, or say it's OK but you are taking the debate way out of the context of the thread. In the past, slavery brought us some of the wonders of the world (e.g. the pyramids) and pretty much all the great civilisations practised slavery at some point. In-fact, you could probably say that in those times, without having the technology to do such things, the egyptians/romans/persians etc. used slavery to get things done and this was seen as acceptable for the time. The warhammer world is in a similar state of pre-technology and IMHO, I don't believe the CD's would consider it evil at all (this is what the thread is about).

I agree with you that slavery in the modern day probably would be considered evil, however another thing that is considered evil is oppression, and along those lines, your last quote. You can't force people to share your opinion and you shouldn't abuse them because theirs is different "if you don't share my opinion you are either stupid or insane". While probably un-intentional, comments like this can cause upset. This is supposed to be a friendly forum so please be nice!

So back on topic from now please!
58

Thommy H:

I agree with you that slavery in the modern day probably would be considered evil
God almighty...

"Probably"?

"Probably"?

This is not about a difference of opinion. This is not about me "forcing people to share my opinion" either - it's slavery. If you think it's anything but evil then you're WRONG.

I'm trying really hard not to fly off the handle, but I don't know if I can be polite when people are saying things like this. Both of you are paying lip service to decency and saying things like "no one is saying it's okay" when, in the next sentence you do exactly that.

Rape used to be acceptable too. Genocide was considered a fine way to deal with your neighbours is the ancient world. Slavery, and the kind of attitude that enforces it, belongs with this kind of thinking.
While probably un-intentional, comments like this can cause upset.
There was nothing unintentional about what I said. I'm offended by someone trying to justify slavery because that kind of attitude is downright repellent. I think you guys need to take a moment to think about what you're actually saying, and what kind of regimes you're supporting with your comments.

No one in the modern age with more than half a brain thinks for even a second that slavery isn't something completely horrible that is an immediate indicator that the perpetrator is evil. I have no idea why you don't agree with that, and I can only conclude that it's due to stupidity or insanity.

I won't apologise for being the only one in this discussion who appears to be able to think rationally.
59

Willmark:

Gonna have to side with tommy on this one, but please let get this thread back on topic.

60

Gilzam:

Ok ill say that they do in there own way.

They aided Chaos in Storm of Chaos, Hashut is really a Chaos God, and its in our name CHAOS Dwarfs.

We just think different to regular Chaos they just run in not planning and are disorganised and we seem to plan an awful lot instead of doing anything. If we eventually get around to attacking the west, ever im sure we would conquer it muahaha :slight_smile:

So yes I would say yes CD would consider themselves a organised Chaos. We worhsip a Chaos God anyhow :hashut