[Archive] Do Chaos Dwarfs consider themselves "Chaos"?

[system]

Hammerhand:

Let me itterate again thommy, as it seems you only read what you want to.

Yes, slavery is evil in this day and age, no one is disputing that.��The point myself and wallacer are making is that in the ancient world it wasn’t seen like that and WFB is based in an ancient world, so the CD’s would not consider it evil which is what this thread is about.

There was nothing unintentional about what I said

Thommy H

I know you intended to say what you said, but I would hope you did not intend to upset/offend people.��Again, that’s you just reading what you want to read.

I’m offended by someone trying to justify slavery because that kind of attitude is downright repellent. I think you guys need to take a moment to think about what you’re actually saying, and what kind of regimes you’re supporting with your comments.

Thommy H

And how are we justifying it, infact if you take the time to read the post:

There are many things which were considered moral in the past which are not now, and conversely many things that are considered immoral now that were not in the past.

Slavery is one example of that.

Wallacer

No one, (not even wallacer) is trying to justify slavery, or say it’s OK

Hammerhand

Addmittedly, it was poor wording by me with the probably, it wasn’t meant in the way you have taken it.��It’s just a word I put in.��If it offended you then I apologise, as I meant no offence.��

However, I would let you know that you are definately offending me with the abrupt, abusive and ‘holier than thou’ manner of your responses to the last couple of threads.��That is how you are saying it, not what you are saying before you turn that round to make me some sort of Hitler fan.��And even though I attempted to bring this back on topic, you have just dragged it right back to where it was. A pointless arguement over a missunderstanding.

This is not about a difference of opinion. This is not about me “forcing people to share my opinion” either - it’s slavery. If you think it’s anything but evil then you’re WRONG.

Thommy H

��This is an opinion whether it’s right or not, it is an opinion.��You shouldn’t be abusive to someone because theirs is different to yours, whether you agree with them or not.��That’s what I was saying in my last post, not that slavery is Good.

So, I try again:

Is slavery in this day and age evil - Yes

Would the Chaos Dwarfs think that it is evil - I don’t think they would, no.

[system]

torn:

lol look at you all with your whole slavery debate, yet you probably havent even considered whatslavery entailed in the ancient world, and how that has changed, even with democracy, into the working class today.

Only within the last 50 years have even lower class Europeans been given the freedom and opportunities to be able to do something other with their lives than toil away in dangerous jobs such as coal mining (something which still kills the older men of my town) or put into wars not through choice or conscription.

Is that any different to the slave class of Ancient china or Egypt? no.

Slavery in the past was the other option instead of genocide in many circumstances, and if you study ancient Egypt you will see a lot of slaves were treat in very high regards. Slavery does not nesiceraly mean being worked to death and locked up every night. I think the treatment by the africans by the americans, which was pretty bad by our standards (yet not compared to what the africans were doing to each other) was a lot worse than any other example over time, and obviously seen even more worse because in the time it was happening the general populations of many nations frowned on slavery.

now bringing this into the warhammer world is a completely different thing. There is no moral justification for plastic soldiers, or words in a book. They can do whatever thy want. Of course chaos dwarves wouldnt work if they didnt have fiery pits where slaves toiled all day digging out metal ores.

Does that make them evil? I cant see how. Good/Evil is a personal desicion, it cant be forced on you by someone else, unless you are in some form of moral slavery such as a hardcore religious school. Everyone is free to make up their own mind on the issue of morals no matter what anyone else thinks.

I wont be replying into this thread again, i have given in my first part some historical facts, and in the second part my own opinion. Anyone who tries to argue against my opinion is wasting their time, and anyone who tries to argue against the facts needs to do more in depth research.

[cornixt]

cornixt:

If you consider CDs to be evil because of slavery, then you are considering just about every ancient civilisation to be evil also. Good and evil are judged by the society they are in, and slavery was not only acceptable in ancient times but also highly regulated. For example, you could only beat your slave for very good reasons, mistreating slaves was as bad as mistreating non-slaves. Maybe in the future we will all be considered evil for eating meat or keeping birds in cages.

Since the game revolves around the Empire (or at least the Old World), whether slavery is okay/evil in Warhammer depends on what they think, and that is something we don’t know.

[system]

Hammerhand:

:hat off@torn.

That’s kind of what I was getting at. While it can be considered evil in the real world now, in the fantasy world I’m not so sure. CD’s are not numerous enough to work their own forges, they need slaves for their society to function. That is not necessarily evil in their eyes.

:cheers@Cornixt

Yep, that’s pretty much what I was saying too. Although it wouldn’t matter what the Empire thinks of slavery, they would just consider CDs as evil anyway IMO.

Does Evil=Chaos though? you could argue that they are merely practising the worship of their god(s). Many conflicts and much suffering in the past has been caused by religeous differences, could you call them evil for believing in different gods? Wether we prove/determine the CDs are evil or not, would this determine whether they consider themselves as chaos?

In my opinion, they do consider themselves as chaos, as I mentioned earlier in this thread, throughout the Warhammer Presents: book there are several icons depicting the 8 pointed star of chaos behind a flaming open topped skull. Unequivical.

[system]

Thommy H:

I would let you know that you are definately offending me with the abrupt, abusive and 'holier than thou' manner of your responses to the last couple of threads.

My intent was to offend, I assure you. I feel extremely strongly about this issue.

When you make excuses like "it was acceptable in the ancient world", you're justifying the opinion that slavery isn't something that is always reprehensible, which it is. Again, I reiterate: many things have been acceptable, even laudable, in the past which are now considered abhorrent: rape, genocide, honour killings, imperialistic conquest of weaker nations. It doesn't change the fact that slavery is quite clearly something evil and monstrous.

For example, you could only beat your slave for very good reasons, mistreating slaves was as bad as mistreating non-slaves.

See, it's stuff like this that reads like an excuse to me. The circumstances of slavery are irrelevant - it doesn't matter if it "wasn't that bad"; the very concept of owning another human being is offensive and disgusting. Every time someone in this thread tries to explain some quirk of history, it just sounds like you're justifying evil. Don't do it. We're not discussing the historical fact of slavery, we're discussing whether forced servitude, as a concept, it one which can be considered evil. There should be no debate on that subject.

CD's are not numerous enough to work their own forges, they need slaves for their society to function. That is not necessarily evil in their eyes.

And this is even crazier! You're missing the whole point, and what I see here is "misaimed fandom" - because they're your army, you don't want to think they're the bad guys I guess. Chaos Dwarfs are very definitely evil: they were written to be so. There's no grey area in what they do - they're complete monsters who sacrifice other people to their god in elaborate rituals and work millions of slaves to death.

Just because they don't think it's evil, doesn't mean that we, from our position as outside observers of a fictional society, can't condemn them. They're an evil race.

Which has nothing to do with the reason I started this thread at all, of course, but someone decided to take it off-topic by saying that "no one in the Warhammer world is evil" when, by any modern definition, pretty much everyone in the setting is just that. It's kind of the point, guys.

[system]

Hammerhand:

It’s that sot of narrow minded pomposity that causes all the trouble in the world. “Your way is wrong, I don’t care what you think, you should think like this etc etc”. Do you not realise that this is wrong?

It’s a theoretical debate about the point of view of IMAGINARY beings. The fact that people think differently about this sort of thing is good.

All in all, you are being offensive deliberately, you keep this arguement going no matter how many times It’s tried to be avoided and refuse to let this thread back on topic. How many more CDO rules do you want to break?

[cornixt]

cornixt:

Okay, this is going to have to be an “agree to disagree” thing. Any more discussion on the topic of slavery being good/evil in this thread and it will be locked.

[Xander]

Xander:

I have read over this topic and I am a bit disappointed.

So long as the popularity of Warhammer continues, a source is needed for the Chaos Dwarf army to keep pace. Chaos Dwarfs Online provides a community with a forum for members to learn about, inform others about, contribute to, and evolve the Chaos Dwarf army in a welcoming and open minded environment. Chaos Dwarf generals, old and new, can unite under a common banner that Chaos Dwarfs Online is happy to provide.

Mission Statement of CDO

I wrote this mission statement for a reason.

Wallacer, and every other person has the right to their opinion. It is not the job of myself, or anyone else here to disallow him this right. He expressed his opinion about the morality of slavery in a very open and non-threatening way. When Thommy H took offensive to this, Wallacer very politely asked that if he wished to discuss the matter that he would be willing to do it by PM.

We’re not discussing the historical fact of slavery, we’re discussing whether forced servitude, as a concept, it one which can be considered evil. There should be no debate on that subject.

Thommy H

Emphasis mine.

The fact is that Wallacer is discussing the historical morality of slavery. If I understand him, he is suggesting that in a time where slavery is deemed commonplace by society it would not be a factor in determining whether or not “Chaos Dwarfs consider themselves Evil” which is what this topic has been addressing. Wallacer is making a valid role playing argument here and was polite about it.

Just because they don’t think it’s evil, doesn’t mean that we, from our position as outside observers of a fictional society, can’t condemn them. They’re an evil race.

Thommy H

You will have next to no disagreement here. But the fact is the topic is talking about Chaos Dwarfs, and whether they consider themselves to be evil. Maybe they do, maybe they do not, that’s why it is called a discussion. Some people may be of the opinion that when a person from the Old World is determining if the Chaos Dwarfs are evil, that slavery may not be considered as an evil thing, and may not weigh in to their decision, based on historical morality.

Slavery is not moral. Command over another’s free will is appalling. But you must accept that their were times when this was not the moral code. In Roman times for example people had slaves. “Good” people had slaves. Such people would not consider themselves, in that time, in that context, to be bad. If now they were alive and had to look at their own morality again, they may think otherwise but the fact remains that slavery was not always considered evil in and of itself.

The matter on that is closed. I respect both sides of the argument. However, I cannot accept intolerant and hurtful comments on this forum, it goes against everything this forum represents.

These sorts of comments are not acceptable and are deliberate character attacks:

I think you should reconsider how you define your moral code.

Thommy H

Anyone who disagrees is insane or stupid. Pick whichever one you prefer.

Thommy H

God almighty … No one in the modern age with more than half a brain thinks…

Thommy H

My intent was to offend, I assure you.

Thommy H

Each of these comments is going to cost one slave. Thommy H, if you intend to continue to be a part of this forum I expect no more such comments. You are a valued member of this community, but I will not stand such an attitude towards other members, I don’t care if they are talking about the most vile sin imaginable, I will not have such a negative attitude. You have been warned. Thommy H, if you feel the need to discuss this with me, please send me a PM.

Let’s get back to the fun that is Chaos Dwarfs, shall we? :mask

[system]

wallacer:

The fact is that Wallacer is discussing the historical morality of slavery.��If I understand him, he is suggesting that in a time where slavery is deemed commonplace by society it would not be a factor in determining whether or not "Chaos Dwarfs consider themselves Evil" which is what this topic has been addressing.��Wallacer is making a valid role playing argument here and was polite about it.

Xander

That is the point I was trying to make.
I'm genuinely embarrassed to admit that you actually articulated it better than I did myself...

[Border.Reiver]

Border Reiver:

Do Chaos Dwarfs/Dawi Zharr consider themselves to be “chaos”?

Based on the older fluff and the developing story line, I would say that it is a definite "maybe."

Pro considering themselves part of chaos -

a. the use of daemons in their forging of weapons of mass destruction;

b. Their acceptance of the hybrids we know as the Bull Centaurs.

Against considering themselves part of chaos -

a. General adherence to the core “dwarf values” (admiration of skill, wealth and age);

b. Hashut is not one of the 4, nor is he a known avatar of any of them; and

c. Their societal structure is very much a mirror of dwarf culture (with a few changes).

Just my two cents.

[Stellann]

Skellan:

"Do Chaos Dwarfs/Dawi Zharr consider themselves to be “chaos”? "

I had this idea for why they aren’t “Chaos” for the fluff for my army, and their reasons for choosing the battles and allies that they will have in the upcoming campaign I am playing in. I do not believe my idea is in any way definitive, and I will admit I am actively looking for reasons to differenatiate the CD from the HoC. I do feel it fits in reasonable well with the original fluff for the CD, as well as the fluff for Rykarth, before they removed the SoC reference.:

The Chaos mortals, who form the main of the HoC, worship and embrace Chaos, and try to deal in supplication with the dark powers. The Beastmen, who are somewhat further down the path and have become creatures modified by Chaos from birth.��Both are bound to specific Chaos gods (even “Chaos Undivided” consists if the 4 main Chaos gods) and all seek to spread their gods influence in exchange for “gifts” in the form of mutations and dark marks.

Chaos Dwarfs are, in my mind slightly different.��

They are certainly effected by the Chaos of their environment, with the slow mutation from normal dwarfs to creatures with tusks and, of course, the Bull Centaurs, Taurus and Lammasu, but this is a process that is described as slowly creeping up on them, not as an individual mutation.��They do not seem to embrace Chaos and actively seek out its’ mutations the way that beastmen and the mortal hordes do.��There is no “Mark of Hashut” equivalent to those of Khorne, Slaanesh, Nurgle and Tzeentch, nor any Chosen of Hashut.

Instead, they enslave Chaos, binding demons to make their machines of inestimable power, rather than worshipping them or following them into battle.

The Bull Centaur’s place in society is described as having the Dawi Zharr sorcerers “entrust them with complex tasks” rather than taking an active part of the decision making.��Were they in a “Hordes” society, they would rule as the mightiest warriors, and not be the lackeys of the unmutated.��Even the most powerful Dawi Zharr mutants, Taurus and Lammasu, though prized, are kept as slave/steeds by the less effected Chaos Dwarf Sorcerers.��Lammasu are described as beings of great intelligence, but they serve simply as beasts of burden due to the fact that they are no longer true Dawi. Mutants are more “kept” for their usefulness rather than revered as they are in the Chaos Wastes.

So my thought is that the Chaos Dwarves are beings that are infected by the chaos of the Chaos Gate, but they are not of the culture of “Chaos” that has grown in the north and encompasses the Norse Marauders, or the Kurgan. They should not, therefore use too much of the “Hordes” or “Beast” iconography.��As slavers, rather than slaves, they should choose their battles according to profit and industry, rather than to further the ends of any gods or demons.��They expect a profit from an alliance with “Chaos” and are not simply dwarven Marauders eager to charge into battle with the Empire for the sake of the spread of Chaos.

[system]

Hammerhand:

Very good points skell :hat off

However, I believe you hit the nail squarely when you mentioned Chaos undivided being the worship of the four “main” Gods. Who are the lesser gods? It’s been brought up on this thread before, but you could argue that the Horned Rat is one and Hashut is another. The gods are a manifestation of their people, an anthropomorphic personification (to quote a comic novel writing genius!).

While totaly un-related, I love the way Terry Pratchet’s gods work, i.e. they get more powerfull the more they are worshipped. Think about it, to explain why people got ill and explain plague, the superstitious would have believed that there was a god of disease, to help them fight they would have prayed to the god of war, to explain things changing or things that happen without explanation they would attribute to the god of change and magic, and through the actions of the depraved and the pereverted, the god of pain and pleasure! Over time, these gods got more worshippers and their power became as it is. It fits in with Hashut being the “…the embodiment of the city, its deity and its master…”. The proximity of the chaos gate (and therefore the origin of the winds of magic), means the abundant magical energy makes this more possible.

Maybe a bull, or bovine idol was worshipped and suddenly the god manifested itself, With so few worshippers in comparrison to the other gods, his power is not comparable. He can’t create daemons to walk the earth, but he does have power enough to alter his followers to his own image. Plus, as chaos dwarfs are hardy and resistant to the corruption of chaos, their mutations probably wouldn’t be reverred, but instead acknowledged and utilised. Hashut’s daemons could be machine/engine spirits, they need the magic of the sorcerors and some sort of anchor, maybe an engine, to anchor their spirits into the real world.

[system]

gIL^:

[align=left]if im not mistaken, every god in warhammer is chaos and each one is manifested by an emotion,

for example khorne is anger and sigmar is love.
hashut is probably greed.
i think slaneesh is kinky bondage

with that in mind when a person experiances an emotion the god of the respective emotion grows stronger

when a new emotion is discovered a new god of that emotion is born as during the sundering when the elves created slaneesh
[/align]

[system]

wallacer:

sigmar is love.

gIL^

Sigmar was a hard living, hard fighting Barbarian who laid the smack down on anyone who refused to join his Empire.
I don't think "love" is quite the right word. Nationalism or unity might be more appropriate.

I've always thought of Hashut as being the embodiment of uncontrolled technological and industrial "progress", free of the bonds of tradition or compassion.
Kind of like Blake's Dark Satanic Mills, or Fritz Leiber's Smoke Ghost.

[Grimstonefire]

Grimstonefire:

Hmmm, thought this thread was locked.

Anyhow, as I’m not sure I replied to this yet:

IMO this question cannot be answered definitively using any current fluff.��So we all have our opinions, but until GW decides to redo the Chaos Dwarfs we will not be 100% clear.

My view is that “chaos” is too loose a term, as it has too many understandings.

Perhaps a better question would be 'do Chaos Dwarfs consider themselves chaotic?'��

In my fluff, the Chaos Dwarfs have gone down many dark paths, each and every time because their survival depended on it.��They could have chosen to be destroyed with their honour intact, or to slowly decline like the western Dwarfs, but instead they have done only what is was necessary to survive.

Daemon binding for instance is done in as scientific a way as possible, for only by attempting to maintain control can the Chaos Dwarfs hope to survive.��

So IMO only certain parts of the society are unstable,��but ruled with an iron discipline where possible.��So whilst in the main there is order pervading almost every aspect of their society they cannot really be described as ‘chaotic’ as a whole.��If there was no order anywhere they would be chaotic (and part of ‘chaos’).��Its an important difference in the warhammer world to the endless cycle of bloodshed that exists further north.

To answer the question ‘do chaos Dwarfs consider themselves chaos?’, I think the simple answer would be no, they wouldn’t consider themselves part of chaos.

They may try to control the raw magic of chaos, to use it and its followers as tools, but IMO they are not subservient to chaos.��In my fluff they can choose at any time to reject chaos in all its forms, to slay its followers and to cease trading entirely.��But to do so would mean their eventual destruction.

So they are in part controlling chaos, but the powers of chaos are also controlling them to a certain extent.��In my fluff their fate as a race is very strongly linked to Chaos, because ultimately Chaos is their greatest ally, but their greatest enemy as well.

Also, in my fluff the main reason they are called ‘Chaos’ Dwarfs is because of the common understanding of the word in the Warhammer world, and all it entails; dread, fear, hatred etc.��It being very important to inspire such emotions in their enemies to prevent attack/ bring victories/ control their empire etc.��Also to spite the western Dwarfs for their misplaced persecution.

A long time ago I did actually wonder whether ‘Chaos’ Dwarfs could infact be anti chaos?!!?��I.e. attempting to bring order to chaos by bringing it under their control (thereby attempting to end it).��Using the power of chaos as a weapon against itself, no matter the cost.��I had thoughts to weave the idea of Malal into all this, but it was far too tricky so I completely gave up on the idea.

@Wallacer

I go more with gIL, I always thought of Hashut as the god of greed and all the things that go with that; thirst for power, domination, seeking to improve wealth every way possible (technology/ slavery) etc.

Btw, incase anyone was curious, we put a general policy on slavery on CDO on the forum rules thread.

Oh, and I’m ‘active’ again now as a mod.��I may not be posting much, but I will do my mod duties.

[Willmark]

Willmark:

sigmar is love.

gIL^

Sigmar was a hard living, hard fighting Barbarian who laid the smack down on anyone who refused to join his Empire.

wallacer

Then he would have had a great career�in the WWE but he had to go and ruin it byy becoming a deity... :)

[system]

Canix:

I should imagine the chaotic ones do:P

[system]

Tallhat:

sigmar is love.

gIL^

Sigmar was a hard living, hard fighting Barbarian who laid the smack down on anyone who refused to join his Empire.

wallacer

Then he would have had a great career�in the WWE but he had to go and ruin it byy becoming a deity... :)


Willmark

Btw did you guys know that the Barbarian in Heroquest is called Sigmar in the examples of characters? :P

- Tallhat

[system]

Bill-117:

Khorne is Anger

Nurgle is Sloth

Slaanesh is Hedonism

Tzeentch is Hope

Sigmar is Unity

The Horned Rat is Deception

The Great Maw is Indulgence

Hashut is Greed

~Bill

[GhraskDragh]

Ghrask Dragh:

Khorne is Anger
Nurgle is Sloth
Slaanesh is Hedonism
Tzeentch is Hope
Sigmar is Unity
The Horned Rat is Deception
The Great Maw is Indulgence
Hashut is Greed

Ahhh, now that is interesting. :cheers bill