[Archive] US Grand tournament - without CDs

Archive [Archive] Chaos Dwarf Discussion
41

metro_gnome:

time will tell
but will we listen?

Wood elves also got a WD list after RH which is a solid commitment to do the army...
CD have been shuffled around the website as long as we have been tournament official...
and now we are dissappering...
42

Thommy H:

12" ranged units will not break chaos...
Who said anything about 'breaking' them? I don't think it's unbalanced - I think it doesn't fit. Like T4 Elves or elite infantry in a Bretonnian army. HoC is one thing - adding these elements would make it a different thing. Why would they want to do that?
ruin an army? thats 7 kinds of silly...
anyone can build a list that avoids all 4 CD units...
anyone can build a list that includes only the 4 CD units...
and then some can mix and match... hooray for choice!
Yes, but GW takes the view that an army book is a design project, and an army as a whole should be cohesive and coherent. Why dilute the design choices made in HoC ("these are elite barbarians from the north who worship the four main Chaos Gods") by adding in elements which don't fit?

I don't think it's likely CD would ever feature in HoC. It's too arbitrary. They have as much connection to it as the Skaven and the only possible reason for them being in there would be to make us happy, and we can't even agree on that in the first place! I know I wouldn't want to see some half-assed version of CD units shoved in HoC where they don't fit just to fulfil some tournament-dictated definition of "legal".

I'll take a new Chaos Dwarf book (or an 'ally contingent' type thing), or I'll stick with what I have, thanks very much.
43

metro_gnome:

don’t fit? make it fit…
you’re advocating an army made of Dwarfs and Greenskins for Hashut’s sake!
what a load… there is NO more unlikely combination than that… talk about arbitrary!

the problem is that there is no making you happy because you already are… or so you would lead us to believe…
the contention that the people on this site are interested in having an official list is a fallacy…
and those of us who have been waiting the longest are subject to the whims of your pride…

44

Grimstonefire:

I think its probably enough to say that regardless of what each of us wants for the CD, none of us have the power to change what GW will want to do.

45

Thommy H:

This first:

and those of us who have been waiting the longest are subject to the whims of your pride…
As I’ve said before, Metro, I object to the conceit that I’m somehow preventing you from getting your new army list by not caring that much about it. GW are not going to decide to write a new army book or not based on a post on a message board. Sometimes the way you talk about it reads like some kind of threat: “agree with how I feel about Chaos Dwarfs or you’ll destroy them forever for the rest of us”. Sorry, I don’t buy it, and you’re not going to convince me that I’m endangering your hobby by having my own opinions.
don’t fit? make it fit…
But where is the incentive for GW to do so? If a full Chaos Dwarf army wouldn’t guarantee them sales (and their research seems to indicate it wouldn’t, or they’d go make one) then why would a HoC list compromised by Chaos Dwarf elements be any different? It’s too much to ask. Why change what works to accommodate a minority they’re not interested in accommodating in the first place?
the problem is that there is no making you happy because you already are… or so you would lead us to believe…
I am happy - I once made a topic about it called “Chaos Dwarf players: disgruntled or delighted?” to ponder whether being a niche army with little or no support was what had made us so dedicated in the first place. I like having a weird army that no one ever sees - people are very enthusiastic about my army because they’ve never seen a Chaos Dwarf force before. It’s like having an interesting theme without even needing to try. I do believe that the removal of the PDF was a bad thing though, since it moves CD from “niche” to “non existent”.

You’re never going to convince me that making them part of HoC is a sensible solution though. They don’t belong in that list any more than Skaven or Dark Elves do, and it would ultimately not only sound the death knell for fully supported Chaos Dwarfs, but also make a mess of HoC.

46

Kera foehunter:

So how many of you ever played in a gw grand tourament. I been to one with my dad and uncle.They are no big deal.

but to have Chaos dwarf with other army come on now. we should join the wood elfs or back with the dwarfs.

47

metro_gnome:

well I was disappointed that we weren’t in the dwarf book…
that would have been really easy…

CDs have always been with another army… this is an O&G list…

Why change what works to accommodate a minority they’re not interested in accommodating in the first place?
how does it work? its six units and a spawn… it has to be retooled…
CD are just as sensible a solution as dividing out the chosen and calling it a new unit…
or marauder chariots… talk about redundancy…
sorry buddy… HoC is a mess… adding us would make it work better not worse…

militant hats have brought us down before… they can do it again…
only this time we can’t afford to be brought down any lower…

48

Thommy H:

how does it work? its six units and a spawn... it has to be retooled...
I'm not aware of any evidence for it not working. I understand the Daemons are being taken out, but one would assume that the backwards-compatibility of Chaos would be retained, and they could include units of Daemons or Beasts in their army as before. Chaos is one of the most adaptable and varied armies in that regard.
militant hats have brought us down before... they can do it again...
only this time we can't afford to be brought down any lower...
The attempt to create a sense of inclusiveness is cute, but I can do without the demonisation. "Militant hats"? "Whims of your pride"? This is a game, not a religion.
49

metro_gnome:

ah… no… the three books will be stand alone… no mixing anymore…
hows that for GWs incentive to beef up mortals…
tho why you think GW can release a book with six units mystifies me…
oh thats right… you expect the same for chaos dwarfs…

religion? who is the “all or nothing” crowd here?

50

dancehat:

sorry buddy... HoC is a mess... adding us would make it work better not worse...
Agreed. Even would make sense too... I´d love a new book of course with new units etc etc to make it work.
However, it will not hard for GW to fill out the HoC even without CDs, can even make up a new unit or two.
Also, it is only speculation at best, we know nothing cept for whats on warseer(unless you´re connected!)
Till then, I´ll use mine CDs as with the PDF or Dwarf book... and hope for the best.
51

metro_gnome:

no… its true… they don’t need us…

but after all of the ground work laid out by SoC and Grudgebearer…
and a general need for units in the book… it seems like a very good idea…
why they would do it should mystify no one…

well there’s only so much speculation left…
'Ard Boyz has stated that BoC will not be able to use mortals or daemons for the final…
citing the daemon release and the WD mortals list… you can mix for the qualifications tho…

52

dancehat:

but after all of the ground work laid out by SoC and Grudgebearer...
and a general need for units in the book... it seems like a very good idea...
Oh, I agree there. Now there´s just hoping that Gav affinity towards the stunted people seeps through GWs nets.

-Dancehat
53

Ghrask Dragh:

:o Thats alot of conversation in one day! just for the sake of it I think your all wrong :stuck_out_tongue:

Seriously though, as far as the HoC go, I think it be good to include as maybe hired guns or something like that, might even be testing the water for a full list?

Before we get too bogged down in what are they going to do or if it’s going to suck or not just think… in the 6th Ed we had nothing and now we are in the Warhammer rule book, the dark lands have been in White Dwarf, we did get some new miniatures (hellcannon crew), we have featured in new GW fluff in Ogre Kingdoms Armies book and Grudgebearer and we have a guy inside GW working for us in Gav, I don’t think we can be forgotten or removed now… so in fact removing the pdf might be a good sign?

54

Willmark:

the problem is that there is no making you happy because you already are... or so you would lead us to believe...
the contention that the people on this site are interested in having an official list is a fallacy...
and those of us who have been waiting the longest are subject to the whims of your pride...

metro_gnome
The thing that Metro keeps consistently missing is this:

We all want Chaos Dwarfs to be successful,we all want to have an army book (despite what he might believe). I also fail to see what you think those of us that want a book with the army as is somehow mystifying.No were not that dense, No, were not that unreasonable, because some of us feel that their is nothing wrong dosen't make our opinions any last valid than yours. Nor does it mean we are idiots.

This is how I see it.
Some of us: "We'd just like a book with rules fixed /update, what have you.
Metro: "No you are all idiots! only I know how Chaos Dwarfs should be, stop wasting my time with your insignificant opinion".
Some of Us: "OK great, thanks for taking the time to see our opinion".

And No, I'd rather have chaos dwarfs official supported with some form then nothing at all. If it means in HoC then great I'm all for it if that is all we are going to get. And as far as the Firmir comment what was that? Is that supposed to mean something to me? Guess what, it really doesn't except make me wonder why I'm having this conversation with someone so unreasonable.

I do find it curious that Metro who is so against arguing for a rule or army book based purely on fluff is doing just that with:
you're advocating an army made of Dwarfs and Greenskins for Hashut's sake!
what a load... there is NO more unlikely combination than that... talk about arbitrary!

metro_gnome
This has no bearing on GW's plans as you have said so in so many other threads. GW will do what makes them money and is unconcerned with fluff. They never have been, probably never will be.

In short I hear your points, as a last resort I'd be in favor of them. However I disagree with them as do others. Doesn't make us wrong or you right, Its not about pride nor is it about what has to be... Its simply sad that you can't admit that others have viewpoints counter to your own and
55

metro_gnome:

thats funny… i don’t recall calling anyone an idiot…
firmir are an ancient 3rd ed army of swamp creatures…
the army was discontinued… like we are… “last resorts” eh?

im not missing anything… i’ve been told that others… and not even you…
you seem to only stress how indifferent you are… even if it is in the most offensive way possible…
but I have been told by others here that they would rather no list than an official list…
forgive my objection… but i’ve been down this road before… and the stakes were not nearly as high…

I’m also sorry that I have had to bring up how ridiculously implausable the fluff for the big hat army actually is…
would it help to say “he made me do it”?.. I’m perfectly fine with it… have been working with it for a while…
but I’m also fine with more plausable plot lines…

56

Thommy H:

and the stakes were not nearly as high...
Just a game. Seriously.
57

Willmark:

you seem to only stress how indifferent you are... even if it is in the most offensive way possible...

metro_gnome
Ok what's missing here? Being indifferent to the fate of an army that by the very fact of us being on this site WE ALL LIKE? I'm not indifferent> I can't change the fact that for THIS YEAR I, nor can anyone else choose to bring them to a Grand Tournament and play with them. Don't confuse the fact that I can't change it with the fact I don't care.If I didn't care I wouldn't be here. Being offensive about it? Wow, expressing my opinion is an offensive act? I'm not even going to stoop to the irony that is that statement. Methinks its a case of you can't see the forest for the trees.

Lets try this yet again and I see if I can make my self clearer:

I WANT Chaos Dwarfs to be official in 7th.
I WANT to be able to take Chaos Dwarfs to any tournament/store etc.
I WANT Chaos Dwarfs to be an army list rather then the red headed step child of warhammer.
I WANT Chaos dwarfs to be as they are now, updated and brought up to 7th edition. Allying with O&G to me is fine. If they ally us with Chaos its not what i want.
I WANT Chaos Dwarfs to be a success and continue forward, even to the point if its in a form I don't want.

With that said
I DO NOT trust that GW will make the list that I want Chaos Dwarfs to be.
I DO NOT think GW is thinking this out in anything other then pure economic terms. If it makes sense to do so, they will, simple as that.
I DO NOT believe GW cares about the fluff of O&G, with Chaos or if they were allied with the tooth Fairy, The Easter Bunny or Bigfoot, throw in Nessie too.
I DO NOT think we are getting a list. We can argue this until GW releases 8th edition, that is the only way we will know for sure. As after the Squats I doubt GW is going to come right out and say "Chaos Dwarfs have been discontinued". Rather GW will let it ride and remove all traces of it as an army that you can actually play with. I disagree with Thommy here. GW could simply decide its easier to make them a background race (ala: Kislev, Estalia, Nippon, Cathay, Ind, etc...) rather then a playable army.

These OPINIONS are not mutually exclusive, nor are they contradictory with each other:

I HOPE that GW makes a list that serves us well. I just DON"T THINK ITS LIKELY. I'm a optimist, but I'm also a realist.

Somewhere along the line in your rush to label my posts offensive you take the fact that if GW doesn't do the list the way I wish to somehow become "I'd rather not have a list...". Maybe others, not me. I'm of the mindset that something is better then nothing at all. As noted if we get rolled into HoC, so be it. I simply do not feel that is the right answer. Nor do I have confidence GW will do a list at all.

Don't know how much clearer I can make this.

Lastly: you don't call people idiots directly, you dance around it ever so slightly/deftly. Thommy noticed it, so did I. The basic problem with your method of posting is this: its all take and no give. Sorry, but true. Many including Grim have pointed this out; even mentioning to "agree to disagree", but that seems to never be enough.

In no way shape or form should this be construed as a flame; on the contrary: I value your opinion. I respect your judgments/thoughts/opinions, even if I disagree with them. Its a shame that apparently its not a two-way street... Because here is a brilliant point you make: It would have been so much easier if GW had simply added it to the dwarf book, best suggestion/point I've heard you make so far.
58

Xander:

Let’s tread very carefully from here on out. We’ve had some good discussion, but the content of posts is slowly degrading. :slight_smile:

Let’s jump back on topic about the US Grand Tournaments. I would be interested to know how many members regularly participate in US GTs.

59

Willmark:

funny you should mention it. This is the first year I’m going to Gameday. And if I had a good enough time I was strongly considering GT Baltimore in October. I suppose I could bring my High Elves… :frowning:

60

wallacer:

Good to see you posting on the forum again, Metro.  You do for this place what chilli beans do for my nachos :cheers

Willmark - I shall give you some slaves in recognition of your passionate enthusiasm on behalf of your beloved stunites :cheers

Back on topic (finally)…

GW are in the business of selling miniatures.  Nothing else matters to them.  From their point of view it makes no difference whether CD are in the HoC book or allied with Greenskins.  It only matters how best they can sell Chaos Dwarf miniatures (if at all).

It doesn’t seem unrealistic to me that CD might appear in the HoC book, for the simple reason that GW may well reach the conclusion that the kinds of people interested in buying Chaos worshipping humans may also be interested in buying Chaos worshipping Dwarfs.

It doesn’t really seem like that big a leap of logic (especially to some unimaginative marketing clod).

The real test will be if the GW bean counters are willing to get the miniature designers to start sculpting new CD figures and if they think people will buy them.

I suspect that if they thought there was a big demand out there for them then they would have redone the CD army list long ago.

At this stage of the game I will take just about anything - some entries in the HoC book, a new PDF, anything.

We’re way past the point where we have the luxury of being choosey.

If some entries in the HoC book or a new PDF (perhaps even, Hashut willing, some new figures) is the best we can hope for then I could live with that.

I’d prefer a new army book and a full miniature line, but GW aren’t exactly swimming in bottomless oceans of cash at the moment.

(we should probably be grateful they’re still in business…)