Yes, Bull Centaurs got the shaft a little bit. i mean their damage output was subpar before too, but at least they were arguably the most durable unit in the game. Iron Daemon and Ironsworn are excellent, though, ebb and flow I guess.
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Yes, I agree. They look like they will be a bit pillow-fisted. Either drop some points or buff them up. Not sure why the points when comparing to other units.
Also, probably the most egregious thing. They didnāt get Furious charge or Stomp. I mean, really? They embody every word of the Furious Charge flavor txt and as far as Iāve seen all other monstrous Cavalry units have Stomp. I believe that was purely an oversight and should be added to the pdf.
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In the fluff on the page for infernal guard they mention Hats, so I run the guard as my big hats and am looking for a good solution for the ironsworn
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Ask fabezel to sculpt masked hatted veterans?
Or brawniac
Haha, my current plan is light conversion and a black paintscheme on the old Ironbreakers
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I am so excited weāve not been neglected this time! A new edition of warhammer and we are in 
.
For an old grumpy dwarf like me that had faced years of oblivion after 6th edition Ravening Hordes until weāve been resurrected by Forge World and (almost) abandoned again in 8th edition ā¦ itās an huge relief.
God bless Legion of Azgorh and all the guys that put their hard earned money into FW resin miniatures (including me).
I think this passion, this love (and those money) saved us in the eyes of Games Workshop management.
I (almost) cry for joy 
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Theyāre essentially one in the same here since they start with just heavy armour and have blunderbuss and heavy weapon options, itās just that they chose the name from Tamurkhan. I donāt see any issue using my big hats there.
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Well for one Infernal Guards are S4 ā which does not match to the Dwarf Warriors in Forces of Fantasy (my book hasnāt arived yet so Iām basing this on Mountain Miniature Wargamingās video). In 4E the Dwarf and Chaos Dwarf warriors are match-to-match in stats and their weapon choices are also mirrored.
In 8E the Infernal Guards are lored specifically supposed to be Chaos Dwarf equiveplant to Dwarf Slayers so as to justify their higher stats, but that left the Azgoth without a common Dwarf unit. And I detest the argument āthat they donāt need itā ā their lore even in 8E did not remove normal Chaos Dwarfs, but never gave the option to take them. The legacy PDF should have included S3 Chaos Dwarfs to remedy that mistake, but they CHOSE not to
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Iāve exclusively used Hats as well, and made the same argument re IG not being a complete army, but I still see this entry as a complete win. The lore blurb for IG in TOW makes no mention whatsoever to dishonor, references tall helmets, scale armour, and bright livery giving you carte blanche to run them as Warriors In Good Standing both in model choices and lore. Iām totally willing to take a Strength and Leadership bonus over vanilla Dwarfs, and arguably we should when you compare the difference between Chaos Warriors and humans. Combined with the fact you have heavy armour (not 4+) and not even blackshard as standard Iād argue that calling us Infernal Guard is closer to a technical writing decision rather than a lore one.
The listing that actually matters here is Bull Centaurs as Renders fulfill a completely different role, and actually leave us a bit out in the cold in regards to filing the role of shock cavalry. On top of that the Bull Centaur Lord of RH was really the hidden gem of that list and gating his (almost exact) stats behind a unit of Renders makes his commitment wildly expensive (consider that you could get 5 BCs in heavy armour with full command for less than you can get 3 Renders).
The bizarre place I actually find myself with this list, as I play with it, is that it plays so completely different than RH. No orcs means my only inexpensive troops are hobgoblins (still no spears lol), no BCs means I lost my (literally game winning) shock troops, and the earthshaker has moved to more of a damaging role than a battlefield control one. We got black orcs, but hobgoblins donāt suffer from Nu-mosity, so youāre encouraged to take the expensive Ironsworn to Quell Panic, but finding points for them is hard. Itās exciting that we can lean into the Chaos list a bit, but the rules for bringing them complicate things more than I think they should. The 8th ed list was all about the artillery train, but I donāt really like that playstyle or aesthetic. I definitely have a learning curve ahead of me!
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I agree with your points on Bull Centaur Renders. They are over-costed for their stat-line and equipment cost. I wrote to GW asking if itās intendended that they do not have Heavy Armor. Seems to be a huge miss in my opinion. Not even having the option to upgrade is just shameful, that Zharr-Naggrund would issue forth their faithful guardians armed only in Light Armor is befuddling to say the least.
That being said, I do think they can still perform the role of shock cavalry. They do cause D3 Impact Hits (which have always strikes first) at S4 and AP -2. This means that, provided your opponent doesnāt shoot them off the board before they charge, you can mitigate the amount of wounds your opponent is going to do back to you (no step up) with those impact hits. If itās your first charge of the game, youāll disrupt their ranks as well, which means you have a good likelihood of both surviving the combat and overrunning the opponent.
Playtesting will tell whether they are worth their points, though. They may have moved from a solid and reliable choice, to a gimmicky one.
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Itās very interesting what they chose to include and what they did not. Many, but not all, 4th and 5th edition concepts got respect in this document - more than they did in Tamurkhan, which also does not have full representation.
All concepts left to one side can easily be developed by us as a community and played in the casual environments this pdf is intended to sit in.
It sounds like you have a clear view in your mind of what you want, which is to say, regular Dwarf warrior statline for bighat infantry.
Many of us want other things; cav centaurs, the Kādaai Destroyer, 80s weapons teams, 80s juggernaut.
Warhammer Armies Project (just as an example) has all of these things, and it will not be difficult to import and tweak units from that in collaboration with our friends across the table.
You donāt even have to overcome that hurdle. You just have to run a unit of dwarf warriors and tell your mate.
I suggest this is a superior course of action to complaining.
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Iām very pleased for the most part at the support, itās been so long. There were some choices that I wish were different though, only for my personal bias towards certain models. Wish there were a cheaper infantry option for the dwarves such as the old chaos warriors but they did provide the classic options to infernal guard.
Iām very curious how the infernal guard with blunderbusses will play, theyāre very expensive, especially at 20+ to get the rerolling of 1s to hit.
Disappointed at the Bull centaur renders, which Iām very biased here because the classic ones are my all time favorite sculpt. The renders are so expensive and lacking heavy armor, very curious on how these will play. Iām sure the community will develop a lot of rules for what is lacking over time, but damn I was hoping for those classic Bull Centaurs to be coming back and be badass like the orc boarboys
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Black orc warboss can take wyvern as mount if you want pure flying melee monster rider.
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I see this as a disgrace and no community should ever lower their standards just because they are the neglected redheaded step child of a family.
S3 or dishonor
I appreciate this comment.
Itās easy to fall into thinking that a forum is natively superior to other forms of social media. The added barrier to entry, slower pace of conversation, and lack of engagement-driven algorithm all help, but itās good to be reminded that at the end of the day itās the users who make this place as good as it is, or isnāt.
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Iām working on my own army list for our local games with friends and am looking to combine the current OW CDs with the old Ravening Hordes pdf. Sure Tamurkhan CDs were a bit more expensive, but had some nice differentiation from options in the RH list.
I havenāt played at all since 8th edition ended. How are folks feeling the current list and points costs stack up against Tamurkhan and the RH lists? Am I probably going to be OK pulling in the RH entries for CD Lords, Warriors, etc. as-is, or is the balance and points costs too different now?
Again, this is friendly local games and this is more about fielding stuff I have and having fun (fun being things like being able to trot out various models from my collection at different times and have options for CD infantry besides just Infernal Guard).
~N
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Id try to change as little as possible if i were you .
Bring in normal cds (compare costs with dwarfs)
Bring in centaurs (look at beastmen centigors and hero)
Putting the pdf general on a taurus isnt game breaking either
Thats it isnt it? Unless you need orcs or gobbos slaves (id use tge new version in r.h. book)
Long ago dwarfs were standard 8pts before upgrades.
Remember there are more special rules now inc armour bane and penetration
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I concur with all others about the BCRs. That unit alone got the largest shaft in my opinion. Way too many points for their value. This blows since I went in heavy on a large unit from Forgeworld several years ago. I was looking forward to charging a cavalry heavy CD army across the board. GW should either leave them the way they are for probably about 43-45 points (w/ stomp) OR add heavy armor, an extra attack, Furious charge and Stomp for the existing point costs. Canāt believe as monstrous Cav they donāt have Stomp and the flavor txt of Furious Charge embodies BCRs to a T.
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Iāll definitely be giving them a shot, the AP is nice on those impact hits for sure. Iām waffling on whether to use them or KāDaii at the moment. They come in at 15 points cheaper and are a bit more aggressive in their statline, much like a BC. I think their biggest negative is only AP 1 on their attacks and their base contact hits are mediocre, though it triggers every turn. I suppose I worry that staying power is more important in this edition with the updates to the break test charts.
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I need to look if i can use 5 normal bull centaurs as hobgoblin bigbosses on wolves. They would be close to 4th ed centaurs. Points wise around 250 is points or so. It might be a goer!
I do the same for years withforest goblins on gigantic spiders, monsterous cav!
Edit: this would better with osm boar cd cav. Regiment of renown
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