You mean using indirect shots?
I think DqM would benefit a lot from an engineer. Those are not 45 Empire engineers but 85 point engineers. So … Another engine would be great to benefit from it (in case of a HIT roll). Hellbound feels expensive too.
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I’m considering this right now… So our DQM has no base, which essentially sets us up with a 50mm square footprint (the earthshaker cannon), and the DSR has a 50*75 base, but may be deployed horizontally and still have LoS to shoot. That means the enemy cannon has to hit within a line that’s slightly less than 2". If he aims 10" from the back, which is the norm, he will only hit with a roll of 4+4 (arguably 4+6) or above, and will fail to hit with any combination of misfire and as much as a 6 or even 8. I’m too dumb to figure out the percentages there, but it doesn’t look all bad for us (I guess it kind of equals 3+ on two dice?). And that’s provided he has LoS in the first place. We can set up behind a hill and merrily fire away, hoping for a benign scatter or a hit with a roll of 4 (possibly 6) or below. And yes, he does wound on 2+, but has to roll 5+ to take out a DQM and 3+ for the DSR.
Anyway! Our shots will of course have a direct hit on a direct hit, but since their bases are 50*75 and we don’t care about alignment, we can be off by as much as 2" and still have the center hole touch the enemy base.
I’m having fun contemplating this, I hope you’ll indulge me 
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Obviously, having a Daemonsmith around is paramount.
Exactly. Ability to fire indirectly must not be discarded. There are a bunch of vortices which block LoS and can just take a cannon completely out of service. No such problems for Desthshrieker and Dreadquake. (With Steam Carriage it could even be possible to move them around but that’s a different matter)
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IF we roll a HIT when the template moves. That is why recent FAQ is beneficial to Elemental Spirits.
MY problem is that I compare those 185 points to what I could take instead. 3 Bull Centaurs, 60 hobgoblins, Bale Taurus for my wizard.
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There are also Vortices which do not move at all.
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Phantasmagoria and Vortex of Chaos are only othe 2r we have access to and only Elemental Spirits blocks LoS.
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Yeah but other armies have access to them, I’m not only talking about a direct matchup. Empire guy needs to be on much higher alert for them than we do.
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Right. You ment from non-Chorf perspective.
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Break test…
Looser Rolls 2D6 and modifies the results by combat res. If for example a unit lost by 8 you roll 2D6+8 and then compare it to LD.
Simple? No.
Then rules says to use Natural Roll to see the outcome. Natural. So without combat res modifier… Can someone explain it to me?
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If you’re a WHFB veteran, I find it easiest to view everyone as “stubborn” as it was in 8th edition. That’s the new “middle” tier outcome:
- if you roll higher than your LD, you break and flee, just like it has always been.
- if you roll below your LD modified by the combat result, you give ground, also like it has always been (just with the difference that you used to simply stay where you are, now you move back 2 inches.
So these two results are like they always were with the same mechanic. You “decrease” your LD by the combat result and try to roll below that with 2D6. If you roll higher than your unmodified LD, of course that test is failed. The only new case if you roll higher than your LD minus the combat result, but you stay at or below your unmodified LD. That case triggers the third, new result:
- you FBIGO
- unless you’re outnumbered 2:1, in that case you break and flee, just like you would always have in WHFB.
You can also phrase it differently:
You decrease your LD by the combat result. If you roll that number or below, you pass, if you roll higher, you fail. If you pass, you give ground 2”. If you fail, the outcome depends by how much you’ve failed: if you’re still at or below your unmodified LD, you FBIGO (unless outnumbered 2:1), if you roll higher than your unmodified LD, you break.
Maybe I should immediately have used the alternative phrase, I think that’s more succinct. And it underlines a crucial aspect: even if you only FBIGO, that’s still a failed break test, so friendly units nearby have to take a panic test.
Example: you’re a chaos dwarf at LD9. Somehow (with foul treachery) you’ve lost combat by 4. You roll 2D6:
- 2-5: give ground 2”
- 6-9: FBIGO (or break, if outnumbered 2:1)
- 10-12: break
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That is clear to me BUT rules says I use ‘natural roll’ to check the outcome. And that is… What was rolled. Ignoring combat res modifier…
We had a combat where a Wyvern won by 11(!) with the knights. My opponent was sure he Rolls vs LD of 8. Flat. Not 2d6 + 11 vs LD of 8 … And the ‘natural roll’ suggests that. Which makes no sense lol especially when previous paragraph says you use combat res to modify a roll.
Lets use the example above. Cav was LD 8, lost by 11. There is no chance to roll less than zero so cav falls back 4" (2-8) unless they roll 9+?
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A double 1 is always a pass. In that example:
- 2: give ground 2“
- 3-8: FBIGO (if there are still 4 Cav models left, break if only 3)
- 9-12: break
For some unknown reason they flipped the wording of break test from “roll 2D6 and compare to LD minus combat result” to “roll 2D6 plus combat result and compare to LD”, but the outcome is exactly the same. In consequence, either your natural roll is at or below the LD or your roll is at or below your unmodified LD as I wrote it. Result is exactly the same.
If your opponent did just roll and compared to LD, you should have kindly asked what he thought that whole calculating the combat result was for.
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Outnumbered using US, right? Wyvern killed 8 knights out of 10 do they broke on a roll of 3+.
Thanks for help!
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Yes, Unit Strength. If only 2 were alive, only a double 1 would have saved them.
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Do we know of ant winning/doing well lists recently? I am curios what people use in 1500-2000 lists.
I’d really like to see someone manage to make fireborn worth it, but I’m doubtful it’s even possible.
The 2x50+ hobo archers seem real good, mostly cause they’re so cheap.
Dual Iron Daemons probably wreck.
I think we’re somewhat approaching the limit of what can be done within the list. Next to consider is probably strategy - what kind of plays can we pull off with the tools available to us?
I’m a big fan of steed of Shadows, but I haven’t nailed exactly how to use it to the best effect.
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I totally understand the doubts about making Fireborn work—I haven’t seen them perform well in competitive settings either. They just don’t seem to offer enough value for their cost.
The 2x50+ Hobgoblin Archers, babysat by a Kharn, are a steal for their points. They’re the cornerstone of my points denial strategy, tying up enemy units and absorbing fire. In my tournament games, they just marched up the board, taking hits that would have otherwise decimated my more expensive units. Even when facing multiple Pillars of Fire or Magma Cannons, losing 10-12 Hobgoblins per turn didn’t impact me much—they’re cheap and built to soak damage, letting me position my key units freely.
I’ve faced dual Iron Daemons, which are terrifying and fantastic for lane control and rank smashing. Personally, I only run one with Hellbound, which rolls through monster infantry, but it can get bogged down in cheap hordes, making its return on investment a bit questionable. However, when combined with the Hobgoblins tying up the enemy, the Iron Daemon is excellent at grinding down tougher units and capitalizing on forced positioning.
Storm of Ash has been a game-changer for me, shutting down shooting and making my Warboss on Wyvern nearly impossible to hit. Combined with Effigy of Mork for a -2 to hit in combat, my Warboss becomes a serious threat that opponents struggle to deal with. Casting Gathering of Shadows to knock down a big dragon’s leadership just seals the deal.
I also run four Bolt Throwers, and to be honest, they’re so cheap that I don’t mind if my opponent diverts resources to deal with them. But when they hit, they hurt a lot. While they may not take down a big monster outright, they definitely soften them up, making opponents more hesitant to engage. If you can make a 650-point dragon shy of combat, you’ve got a real advantage. In one game, my opponent diverted his Bale Taurus, Iron Daemon and a wolf riders to destroy the bolt throwers. Why because he had a huge block of Blunderbusses which where worth over 400 points. Diverting nearly half your army to run past my lines to destroy 180 points of bolt throwers a worthwhile trade.
For me, it’s all about points denial and survivability. The cheap Hobgoblins allow me to control the board, while my key units (Warboss, Sorcerer-Prophet) operate under less pressure. I keep my Wolves cheap too—if ignored, they become a nightmare; if targeted, they buy me time to get my big hitters into position.
As much as I like the idea of Steed of Shadows, I haven’t found a spot for it in my list. I’m really enjoying Daemonologyand the buffs and debuffs it provides, which perfectly fit my strategy of boosting my Hobgoblins’ resilience while weakening enemy units. So, unfortunately, Dark Magic hasn’t made the cut for me.
In summary, my strategy revolves around the as many wounds on the table and having my magic have a place in every round, either buffing units, or tipping the scales for a big combat or just being annoying. I think any thing that reduces your opponent hits is worth its weight in gold.
Also Hobgoblins doing their job of soaking damage I.e., cheap wounds while the Iron Daemons and key characters clean up. It’s not flashy, but it’s highly effective in a competitive environment.
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They’re first choice against a Troll Horde.
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Cost is one thing but volley fire or even 50+ shots vs large targets can be useful!
Same here. Most units are already figured out so nie we have to perfect executing play.
Steed is best of blunderbussiers. You fly behind enemy linę and shoot. If only it was on elementalism.
12" teleport is also very strong. I did use it with great Success. You can flank position your Daemon, teleport a linę of Dwarfs etc.
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I’m not super convinced, tbh. 50 shots hitting at 4+ at best. 25 hits. Wounding probably on 6’s, 5 wounds, probably between 2+ and 3+ save, maybe 1 goes through. Does the thing have regen and/or ward save? Eh…
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