Hey all I started a thread speculating about the origins of boar centaurs and quickly it expanded into speculation about 1980s style chaos dwarf renegades and marauders.
Who are they? What is their relationship to the Dawi Zharr? In the absence of many of these answers, I think we should club together what we know, what we can logic out based upon what we know, and full in the gaps.
So at the moment these sections will be blank. But as time goes on we can fill them in with details.
(Note - this post is a Wiki. Users can update with information. If you wish to overwrite or contradict information already in this main post please comment below and discuss first )
How the Chaos Dwarf Renegades Came to be.
Chaos dwarf renegade society and religion.
The forces of chaos dwarf marauders.
The relationship between renegades and the Dawi Zharr.
Boar centaurs and mutation within chaos dwarf marauder society.
Interesting points so far. Their story is similiar to the DZ in that the great big chaos invasion happens thousands of years back and they are cut off and caught up in it. It seems they are specifically norscan dwarfs who it has happened to.
Big difference seems to be no dark bargain with Hashut. Rather hiding underground and the general chaos energy around corrupting them. So yeah mutation is gonna be much more rampant in this society.
Interesting point too. Dwarfs since those days who fall to chaos join them. Take Thymbrim Snakebeard. It says he was shunned and fell to chaos. Now he’s joined this lot. So this isn’t a continuation of an ethnic group like the Dawi Zharr, rather a group that over time accepts newcomers who fall to chaos within their ranks
Actually, iirc, in the RoC books the invasion that the Marauder Chaos Dwarfs split off because of was the one led by Asavar Kul, two centuries before Archaon’s.
It is interesting to think of the origin of ‘Helms’.
Possibly not all the dwarfs of Zorn Uzukul fled east to the embrace of Hashut? Some may have stayed to try to weather the storm on the great plain. The huge army of daemons never came but the winds of chaos magic swept over the lands. Maybe the helms are the survivors… twisted and warped infused with chaos… the bonds of guild breaking down and clans reasserting themselves. You could see the remnant clans competing, separating and eventually drawn northwards to the chaos wastes by the taint of chaos within them. Possibly they feel the Hashutim abandoned them much as the Hashutim feel of their vanilla cousins. Thus they are driven by hatred and resentment too.
Alternatively maybe the Helms are the survivors of far northern holds in the mountains later subsumed by the chaos wastes. Only the most northern holds probably ever knew of their existence and these fell to chaos. What if against all odds they survived…buried deep in volcanic halls… protected by rocks rich in obsidian…only the hardiest, most stubborn dwarfs would have ventured so far North…only they could have survived…altered, yes, corrupted, yes, but alive (a story similar to my Khuralski story in T9A).
I like the second. Best as it would seem to fit with the existing lore. Furthermore if people want I can tweak the Khuralski tale to fit WHFB.
We would need to find lore to fit counts as Hashutim units. Clearly the dread quake/earth shaker would be an ass cannon. Skull cracker would be a tenderiser/whirlwind (maybe a unit of two for the base size). Giants is giants but what for K’daii or destroyers?? I think degraded hobgrots would replace hobgoblins well or any ‘lesser’ greenskins. Great Taurus could be replaced by any chaos winged mount. What about Blunderbusses?? Maybe ensorcelled quarrels with minor daemons embedded. Can’t think of anything for rockets or magma cannons yet
This is fascinating. And perhaps we should embrace it. It gives these Dwarfs a different origin story to the Dawi Zharr, a much newer one, and it also puts them directly to some of the events we will be seeing in the old world game.
You can imagine hashutim looking upon these fallen dwarfs with a combination of the same mistrust and hatred they hold all other dwarfs with as well as the fact that they may be forced to be allies with them in specific situations.
I think we should, lore wise, keep the door open for some cultural exchange and allegiance between some renegades and some hashutim (not all). Just because the army books we use are normally hashutim focussed and therefore things like lammasu and stuff may be represented in helm players lists.
We could say something like most hashutim hold these marauders in contempt, however there is a specific splinter sect of sorcerer prophets who see them as a potential solution to their dwindling numbers and believe that over time they can be taught to embrace Hashut and accept their culture. Add some stuff saying that this is considered heresy by other hashutim. Also we could add that some chaos dwarf generals see their use as expendable troops and will often hire them out to fight for Zharr Naggrund but will often send them on the most foolhardy and suicidal missions where they would rather not risk the lives of decent Dawi Zharr?
I reckon we need a map of the area where the norse dwarfs live(d) or northern holds that turned to the chaos gods, even relative to the hashut worshipping ones. If anyone has the skills to give it a go…
It should really be north of Karak Dum shouldn’t it? Because we know about that hold and how it held out and was overtaken etc. There was a gotrek novel about it
So the sea is a barrier between most of the Norse to the realm of chaos. Do dwarves mix freely amongst the manling tribes or do they live apart?
I guess there could be chaos dwarf holds in the northerly mountains. Basically we need to edit the maps a little and put down little settlements or nomadic tribes that might cover the various flavours of the helms dwarfs.
@Nergling did a good YouTube video talking about the origin of the chaos dwarves at one point from a dwarf point of view
And I think by doing the underground thing we can loresplain why we don’t appear on many maps.
As far as the intermingling with human tribes go, I think we would have a relationship with them as occasional allies and armourers. Lots of big heavily armoured Chaos warriors and knights riding out of the wastes , perhaps the chaos dwarf renegades are one of the suppliers of this armour and arms.
However, this being the chaos wastes, they probably fight mankind tribes as often as they trade with them.
Looking at the map of the North, if you assumed the lack of any markings above Kharak Dum is due to a lack of knowledge then… You could assume that the Worlds Edge mountains continue in a line above the break caused by the sea. This Northern Spur could be the birthplace/origin of the helms. It would possibly have been settled after Kharak Dum if the early dwarves moved by land
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