[TOW] CD vs WE - part the two 🪓

[Vacationist]

Had a second outing vs. my brother’s wood elves. This time he brought a more specialized list, with a central line of 20 wild rangers supported by a lvl 4 and a BSB, an eagle, and 10 glade riders. Oh and a mandatory unit of 5 archers that did absolutely zilch for the entire game.

I brought a lvl 4 sorc, a Seneschal BSB, and a blorc bigboss ons foots. As for infantry I brought 15 IG with axe and board, 9 blorcs, 2*10 hobo archers. I tried bringing a deathshrieker and a dreadquake, but this will probably be the last time.

Deployment (to my great shame, the blorcs were not finished or based ):

I’ll again base this off of my brother’s excellent battle report. It’s from his POV, so I’ll likely add some notes below each pic.

In retrospect I should have placed the artillery further back, but my reasoning was to avoid them running off the table if forced to FBIGO. My blorcs should have been further on the flank, for reasons which will be apparent soon.

K, so at this point I realize his ploy: a like 20 strike first great weapon guys with +1 attack (fury of Khaine) + ethereal and reserve move, which greatly increases the speed at which they can reach me (walk between worlds). Yikes. Aaand this time my rocket battery is taken out turn 1 by a volley of poisoned arrows from the glade riders. Joyous

Sole casualties caused by my 305 points worth of artillery, 3 rank and file guys. The quake special rule lowers their movement, but it hardly makes a difference. He conveniently fails to mention that my hobgoblins put two wounds on his greagle before heading for the hills - GJ guys!

Despite my quake, he rolls the required 6 to make the charge into my blorcs (he had rampager’s standard as well, but still). Gliders come in and do their thing to my mortar

Due to the odd alignment of units, my bigboss fortuitously gets to wail at the lvl 4 elf witch, but only manages 1 wound. Hellshard whiffs on the BSB, but it’s not a given @Jasko - I got to put the hits on the challenge opponent this time

Not much to add here, except this was the best and most prolonged moment of the game imo. My brother says that the back and forth had no practical value, but I thought it gave the game tremendous narrative quality.

Last moments. My characters did well to both stay alive and take some heads here and there, courtesy of their ensorcelled weapons.

My brother’s final thoughts, apologies for the harsh language

My takeaway from this battle was essentially also that linehammer is king - there is little to no drawback to using the line formation, and it is majorly detrimental to adopt a rank and file formation.

My war machines will stay home next time. Not only did they do little themselves, but the castling playstyle is just not reactionary enough to be viable against a cunning opponent. It’s somewhat boring too, so there’s that.

Walk between worlds is cheese as all hell, it’s one of the only spells of its type that can cast in combat, and it is an absolute headache to deal with, under most circumstances.

Black Orcs are good (I think), I’ll just need a situation where they don’t get oneshotted by huffed up ethereal great weapon elves Back to the drawing board

Oh! So I’ve been a proponent of Darkforged Weapons only for “melee centered characters” - this battle made me realize that the sorcerer prophet is as good if not a better fighter than the Seneschal, with his ws5 s4 A3. He’s no slouch by any means - bonked quite a few rangers with his bull scepter

Hope y’all are having a good day, I certainly had fun yesterday evening, despite the loss

[Jasko]

Cheers mate, thanks for writing this up, super interesting and helpful!

Feels like you did a lot of things right here, though. The Dreadquake did slow down the aggressive melee unit, just not enough as in: you made it as hard as you could, by forcing a 6. with Rampaging Banner, that’s still a 2/3 chance, but if he only needed a 5 it would have been even easier. Not more you can do. And we all have lost war machines to poisoned Glade Rider shots in turn 1. happened to my Organ Gun last game. Not much you can do about it.

Glad you got to use your Hellshard in a challenge now shame it didn’t kill the bsb.

As for linehammer, it favours an aggressive playstyle for sure. You could try to align your units in a way that he has to multi-charge all of them when he attacks one. Suddenly he cannot use all supporting attacks on one unit and is left without static combat resolution. But yes, it’s annoying. Maybe it’s need some correction in the FAQ after all…

[Vacationist]

@Jasko

You could try to align your units in a way that he has to multi-charge all of them when he attacks one

You’re right. I had that in mind, actually, but I messed it up at some point, and had my blorcs just slightly behind the IG. He wheeled slightly, made contact, and my orcs closed the door.

[Jasko]

@Vacationist

and my orcs closed the door.

Why didn’t he close the door? Would he have made contact with the IG then? Because one could very much argue that this would then be the “A unit may be unable to charge its intended target without making contact with other enemy units” mentioned on p130, rather than just “Unable to Align” from p128…
But you at least treated it as an disordered charge, right? Although it probably didn’t even matter with stinky elves…

[Vacationist]

Yeah he would’ve clipped the IG

He got the initiative bonus, yeah. My boss might’ve attacked at the same time, but he whiffed anyway, so.

[Jasko]

Mhmmm, can’t say agree with how this was handled.

p128 deals with what happens if the charging unit cannot close the door, for example because there is some terrain blocking their wheel. In that case, the defending unit closes the door. If that happens, the charging unit counts as disordered, meaning they do not receive their charge bonus to initiative. There is no rules ambiguity here, the rules are crystal clear on that. So worst case for you, the Wildwood Rangers should not have gotten any initiative bonusses for the charge, which means your Bigboss with I5 would have attacked at the same time.

What can be discussed is what happens if another enemy unit is the reason why the charging unit cannot close the door. On p130 it says “A unit may be unable to charge its intended target without making contact with other enemy units. In such cases, the charging unit must declare a charge against all of the enemy units it will contact, and each is able to declare its own charge reaction. If the charging unit is unable to align itself to all of the enemy units once contact has been made, those enemy units the charging unit cannot align against must themselves align against it. The charging unit counts as having made a disordered charge against any unit that was obliged to align against it.” I would argue this is what happened here, and the Wildwood Rangers should have had to fight the IG and Black Orcs at the same time, without getting initiative bonus.

[Vacationist]

Damn… Yeah that would have been awesome for me. I would have smashed him big time…

[Mollesvinet]

Hello Jasko,

This is the brother, an elf in disguise that has infiltrated the chaos dwarf keep.

In my opinion we played it correct, except that the charge was not disordered. Luckily this made no difference, as the black orc character did not die before attacking.

Page 128: Unable To Align
On occasion, a charging unit will be able to make contact with its charge target, but unable to align to it because something lies in the way.

This is what happened, and what we did.

Page 130: Multiple Charge Targets
A unit may be unable to charge its intended target without
making contact with other enemy units.

My unit was obviously able to charge its intended target without making contact with other enemies, although unable to align. So this rule is not applicable in our situation, in my opinion.

That’s is also why figure 130.2 features 3 units. A wheel in this situation would have caused the charging unit to hit unit B, or unit D, instead of connecting to unit C.

Let me know if you agree or not, will be useful for future reference.

PS: I ended up not submitting a linehammer list to the tournament

Edit to PS: this was a practice game for an upcoming tournament

[Jasko]

Cheers mate,

first off: Cool that you stop by here!

Yeah, I think on the first part we’re all in agreement. Good that it didn’t take out the Black Orc Bigboss before he could strike, so I guess no harm no foul on that one.

As for the second thing, that makes sense too! But then again, maybe the question is if the alignment in part of the charge move. I would argue yes.

I think making these charge move is one of the most complex things in the game, but are often also the most critical. It’s unfortunate that the graphic on page 130 is set up like it is, because if the charging unit would be just a little further away or at an angle initially, it could make the charge to the unit but then not be able to align, but maybe would have needed to make a charge move which would not follow the general rules on p126 about using the shortest way possible and/or move in an as straigh a line as possible. And given that it my either be in the interest of the charging unit to either charge both or exactly the opposite there is a lot of room for potential rules conflct. One could also argue that the rules on p131 about “accidental contact with an enemy unit during the charge move” would apply, as the contact would happen during an align move.

I’m sure this will be addressed in a future FAQ, as it has so many implications. My gut feeling would be that only impassable terrain would deny a charging unit the opportunity to complete the charge move including alignment, as every other situation can be resolved with consequences for the charging unit which, in this case, would be to make contact with an enemy unit.

In any case, I’ve added it to our FAQ compilation which, at some point, we should send out again There some important questions there.

[Mollesvinet]

It is difficult to know what was intended. I do not think accidental contact comes into play since there were no external influence between declaring the charge and moving the charge.

Accidental Contact During A Charge
A charging unit might find its path unexpectedly blocked by
another enemy unit, usually one that has fled from another
charge. If the charging unit is able to wheel to avoid the unit
and complete its charge, it should.

It even states that a wheel should be performed to avoid the intervening unit if possible, which is what we did.

I think a good way for them to solve this in a faq, would be to make a priority list of the various rules. Especially the ones under unusual situations. Then we could pick the highest priority rule that is possible to carry out.

Cheers for the nice debate, let’s see what happens (if anything) from GW.

[flagellant04]

Agree with @Jasko, the charging unit should have declared against all enemies. Step 4 of The Charge Move is to align the charge, no question it’s a part of it.

Unfortunately warmachines are useless against linehammer as it minimizes hits from templates. What you needed here was terrain in the middle of the table. Always always always.

For the welf player, most tournaments are limiting width to 10 so better start practicing something else.

Edit: Just read part one. Clownish. Sorry but I would never play your brother in any system. Man is clearly an expert in making up ambiguity any time something might go wrong for him.

[Vacationist]

Yeah I didn’t hit a lot of guys when I finally got a shot off. I was aware of that too, but I don’t have a lot of painted models and I felt it was only right to bring my classic MIGHTY CANNON OF DESTRUCTION Destroyed those three rangers for sure

Terrain in the middle of the table is not advised qua the BRB - it essentially says a 12" bubble in the center should be void of terrain.

I heard about the limit of 10 per rank. It’s a simple comp, but I can’t help but think: is 10 hobgoblins in a line as lethal as, say, 10 chaos chosen or ogre ironguts? Imo the rule should be max double of your minimum rank as dictated by your unit type. So double of this here:

In my brother’s defense, he’s not as such WAAC, he just really hates losing, there’s a difference IMO. And I am a pushover when it comes to rule disagreements, I’d rather roll a dice or let the opponent call it, to keep the game in good spirits. I don’t mind losing, I’ve pretty much lost at Warhammer my whole life Only recently I got stuck in with a gaming group, got the proper Skaven meta units up and running (yes, even stormfiends, to my shame), and actually managed to win an 8th edition tournament (not only thanks to the stormfiends!! But holy hell were they shooty)

As I mentioned he’s also skeptical of the quality of the rules in TOld World, and is indeed finding ways to cheese the sh*t out of them. Paraphrasing the words of Dr Luke: breaking the game is a way of learning how to put it back together again. I.e. if we don’t explore the loopholes, we will have a harder time making a better game for ourselves down the line.

[flagellant04]

@Vacationist

Terrain in the middle of the table is not advised qua the BRB - it essentially says a 12" bubble in the center should be void of terrain.

This sounds like advice for new players. If it isn’t a rule I wouldn’t follow it, especially as it’s a direct counter to unintended play like linehammer. Terrain can keep games fresh, shake up established metas, and requires problem solving.

It’s all well and good to be skeptical, I’m no evangelist for TOW myself, but it sounds like he’s approaching it with the attitude that it’s bad so it’s coloring his entire experience, and when he sees things written in a way he’s not used to he calls ambiguity and interprets it for his own benefit (the real sin here). TOW is a new system so it’s going to have some confusion but most situations (and all you’ve listed) can be sussed out appropriately.

[Jasko]

@Vacationist

In my brother’s defense, he’s not as such WAAC, he just really hates losing, there’s a difference IMO.

He’s your brother and it’s good that you stand up for him and we don’t want to pile on him and as long as you guys are having a good time that’s the most important thing. maybe he’s not a WAAC player but he’s at least DLAAC (don’t lose at all costs), so idk how much better that is I myself haven’t kept track but I feel I’ve easily lost as many games as I’ve won, and that’s fine, but I won’t pretend it’s not a little more fun to win that it is to lose, and I actively don’t like losing when at a critical point we made some error which decided the game. But that’s just my two cents.

@flagellant04

What you needed here was terrain in the middle of the table. Always always always.

I mean yes, that would have helped a bit, but that would essentially mean lining the board with impassible terrain like bollards every 15cm and units would still be able to just reform after. Idk, there must be another way to deal with this.

@Vacationist

Imo the rule should be max double of your minimum rank as dictated by your unit type.

That makes much more sense than a flat 10, I agree!

@flagellant04

This sounds like advice for new players. If it isn’t a rule I wouldn’t follow it, especially as it’s a direct counter to unintended play like linehammer. Terrain can keep games fresh, shake up established metas, and requires problem solving.

That is indeed a base rule, and/but that 12” bubble is where the “special terrain feature” goes, which you can just add to the game. Anyway everyone can of course just set up the board as they like, no question. But as I said earlier, putting terrain in the middle will also not completely negate linehammer.

What does help, though, is a nice flame template in the side. When, like in this case, models are completely covered by the template, suddenly they are much more potent. A lone Khan on Wolf with the Breath of Hashut will have any DLAAC players think twice about putting their best unit in a nice, clean line.

[flagellant04]

@Jasko

and I actively don’t like losing when at a critical point we made some error which decided the game.

And I hate winning on a bad call too!

@Jasko

I mean yes, that would have helped a bit, but that would essentially mean lining the board with impassible terrain like bollards every 15cm and units would still be able to just reform after. Idk, there must be another way to deal with this.

A large piece or two more centrally located would have forced him to constrict his line for at least one turn allowing other troops to move around the line through the other side, given a better target for warmachines, and would have slowed his advance allowing for more time to react. He could have engaged at that point too. One closer to vacationist’s deployment zone would have prevented a linehammer charge altogether.

No central terrain is a rule I’d take issue with, I hate a board with two just armies just lined up and running at each other. I’ve said it many times but terrain and LoS rules are the weakest part of Fantasy and always have been. House rule them all day.

I didn’t mean to suggest that a flat 10-wide max is the solution, only that his cheese is probably illegal in whatever tournament he’s practicing for.

[Jasko]

Oh absolutely, there must not be an open corridor for a 20 model unit to move through unimpeded, no question. This particular rule also only speaks of a 12" circle around the very center point of the board. Besides and around it there has to be terrain.

And placing one of the “special features” dead center will do the trick and still comply with the rules, so this really doesn’t need to be an issue.

But as I said, obviously this can just be ignored in games. Tournaments will probably adhere to it, though, so one should have an answer to it.

[flagellant04]

Ahh so just a 6" radius? That’s better, I thought it was twice that

[Jasko]

It is twice that

Players can place terrain features anywhere on the battlefield, but not within 12" of a terrain feature placed by their opponent, and not within 12" of the centre of the battlefield. The only exception to this are special features, which must be placed within 12" of the centre of the battlefield.

[flagellant04]

And 12" of another piece? Lmao

[Mollesvinet]

Hello flagellant,

I totally accept that you dont agree with my interpretation of the rules, but no need for personal attacks.

I always do my best to win, using the rules to their fullest this is true, especially in a tournament setting. But I never intentionally bend or break the rules just to win. Keep in mind that I only played two games of ToW, so despite playing Warhammer for many years I am still a novice at ToW rules

About hellshard in a challenge I already apologized and accepted that I was wrong based on the faq entry about assailment. But the same game I also let the chaos dwarves get a chance with the rocket battery by shortening the overrun with the wild riders, and also let the Infernal guard ignore a failed terror test to allow for a funnier game.

I still think we played the charge of the rangers into the black orcs correctly, but also agree that it is not very clear based on the rules. The very first rule of unusual situations is what we used, and I asked my opponent if he agreed before proceeding.

I wanted to try linehammer to see if it was such a big deal as people say, and was partly forced to in any case with 2x 5" template warmachines. I think reinserting base to base as a requirement for attacking would solve a lot of the problems, and then maybe reinserting supporting attacks and only having first rank not able to step up. I think everyone agrees that the rulebook favours lines as it is currently written, which is a shame. It turned out to be not without it’s flaws as I concluded in my report, both gamewise and of course looks wise.

I couldn’t agree more about terrain, usually I am the one who wants more terrain as it makes battles more interesting and tactical. Might be a good idea to start trying out the special terrain piece in the middle. For now we just wanted to follow the book to really experience the new rules.

Hope you will reconsider and give me a chance, I am more than willing to discuss how you interpret the rules yourself. And for your information, I ended up not submitting the linehammer list to the upcoming tournament despite it probably being the strongest.